"Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<1cTPa.42999$ye4.33374@sccrnsc01>...
> "Morghus" <morghus@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
> news:73fedc95.0307112257.4be535ff@posting.google.c om...
>
> > On July 19, 1942, Himmler issued a directive setting a timetable for
snip

>
> Resettlement was a euphemism for murder.

They tried to avoid having written evidence of their crimes.
According to the son of governor Hans Frank his father boasted once
before party comrades "Where have these platfoot Indians gone which
were so aounding only some years before."

Himmler himself said in his speech in Posen / Poznan in 4. Oktober
1943:

line 3: we will not talk about it in public
line 6: Ausschaltung - elimination
line 7: Ausrottung - extermination

"Ich will hier vor Ihnen in aller Offenheit auch ein ganz schweres
Kapitel erwähnen. Unter uns soll es einmal ganz offen ausgesprochen
sein, und trotzdem werden wir in der Öffentlichkeit nie darüber reden
.... Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuierung, die Ausrottung des jüdischen
Volkes. Es gehört zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. - 'Das
jüdische Volk wird ausgerottet', sagt ein jeder Parteigenosse, ganz
klar, steht in unserem Programm, Ausschaltung der Juden, Ausrottung,
machen wir.' Und dann kommen sie alle an, die braven 80 Millionen
Deutschen, und jeder hat seinen anständigen Juden. Es ist ja klar, die
anderen sind Schweine, aber dieser eine ist ein prima Jude. Von allen,
die so reden, hat keiner zugesehen, keiner hat es durchgestanden. Von
euch werden die meisten wissen, was es heißt, wenn 100 Leichen
beisammenliegen, wenn 500 daliegen oder wenn 1000 daliegen. Dies
durchgehalten zu haben und dabei - abgesehen von Ausnahmen
menschlicher Schwächen - anständig geblieben zu sein, das hat uns hart
gemacht. Dies ist ein niemals geschriebenes und niemals zu
schreibendes Ruhmesblatt unserer Geschichte, denn wir wissen, wie
schwer wir uns täten, wenn wir heute noch in jeder Stadt - bei den
Bombenangriffen, bei den Lasten und bei den Entbehrungen des Krieges -
noch die Juden als Geheimsaboteure, Agitatoren und Hetzer hätten. Wir
würden wahrscheinlich jetzt in das Stadium des Jahres 1916/17 gekommen
sein, wenn die Juden noch im deutschen Volkskörper säßen.

Matthias Scharwies

[followup set to alt.revisionism]

A small sample of evidence for the Holocaust:

Documents and photographs:
------------------------------------------
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/camps/belsen
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dk...jaeger-report/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dk...wetzel-letter/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dk...ubner-verdict/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dk...brack-himmler/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dk...ents/auschwitz
http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/cremation


Gas chambers and cyanide compounds:
-----------------------------------
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...r/report.shtml


Mass graves:
------------
A very elaborate study of the mass graves in the Belzec death camp was
conducted recently by a team of Polish archaeologists, headed by Prof.
Andrzej Kola from the University of Torun in Poland, who is the author
of more than 130 papers on archaeology. The team studied the site of
the death camp, drilling 1,700 bore holes and investigating the core
samples. The results are summarized in an 84 page report (ANDRZEJ KOLA:
"BELZEC. THE NAZI CAMP FOR JEWS IN THE LIGHT OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SOURCES.
Excavations 1997-1999". ISBN 83-905590-6-4). The study has recovered
human remains over a very large area, to a depth of up to six meters.
The minimal estimate to the volume of the graves is 21,000 cubic meters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1673471.stm

Mass graves found at Nazi camp

Researchers have discovered seven mass graves at the Sobibor Nazi
death camp in north-eastern Poland.

The research team, which began its government-sponsored investigation
in the summer, said the graves - the largest of which is about half
the size of a football pitch - contain charred remains.

The researchers say this is evidence that the Nazis burnt their prisoners
during the final months of the camp's existence.

Some 250,000 people, mostly Jews, are thought to have died in the camp.

<end quote>


For general references see

http://www.holocaust-history.org/
http://www.nizkor.org/
http://www.yadvashem.org/
http://www.ushmm.org/


-Danny Keren.

"Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1cTPa.42999

> Yup, the order to complete the Final Solution in the General Government.


Who ordered the 'Final Solution?' I don't buy into that final solution
stuff; Did Hitler order a final solution(A complete extermination of Jews?)
Where are the documents that show Hitler ordered the extermination of an
entire race of people?
You people can say what ya want, but ordering the death of an entire race is
something that doesn't get passed down from WORD OF MOUTH.
Hitler had no problems with ordering euthanasia and signing his signature to
that, he sure wouldn't have no problem with sighing orders to gas the Jews,
yet none exist.

"m.scharwies" <m.scharwiesNOSPAM@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:e989e88b.0307121004.5ea64058@posting.google.c om...

> "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:<1cTPa.42999$ye4.33374@sccrnsc01>...
> > "Morghus" <morghus@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
> > news:73fedc95.0307112257.4be535ff@posting.google.c om...

> >
> > > On July 19, 1942, Himmler issued a directive setting a timetable for
> snip
>
> >
> > Resettlement was a euphemism for murder.
>
> They tried to avoid having written evidence of their crimes.
> According to the son of governor Hans Frank his father boasted once
> before party comrades "Where have these platfoot Indians gone which
> were so aounding only some years before."
>
> Himmler himself said in his speech in Posen / Poznan in 4. Oktober
> 1943:
>
> line 3: we will not talk about it in public
> line 6: Ausschaltung - elimination
> line 7: Ausrottung - extermination
>
> "Ich will hier vor Ihnen in aller Offenheit auch ein ganz schweres
> Kapitel erwähnen. Unter uns soll es einmal ganz offen ausgesprochen
> sein, und trotzdem werden wir in der Öffentlichkeit nie darüber reden
> ... Ich meine jetzt die Judenevakuierung, die Ausrottung des jüdischen
> Volkes. Es gehört zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. - 'Das
> jüdische Volk wird ausgerottet', sagt ein jeder Parteigenosse, ganz
> klar, steht in unserem Programm, Ausschaltung der Juden, Ausrottung,
> machen wir.' Und dann kommen sie alle an, die braven 80 Millionen
> Deutschen, und jeder hat seinen anständigen Juden. Es ist ja klar, die
> anderen sind Schweine, aber dieser eine ist ein prima Jude. Von allen,
> die so reden, hat keiner zugesehen, keiner hat es durchgestanden. Von
> euch werden die meisten wissen, was es heißt, wenn 100 Leichen
> beisammenliegen, wenn 500 daliegen oder wenn 1000 daliegen. Dies
> durchgehalten zu haben und dabei - abgesehen von Ausnahmen
> menschlicher Schwächen - anständig geblieben zu sein, das hat uns hart
> gemacht. Dies ist ein niemals geschriebenes und niemals zu
> schreibendes Ruhmesblatt unserer Geschichte, denn wir wissen, wie
> schwer wir uns täten, wenn wir heute noch in jeder Stadt - bei den
> Bombenangriffen, bei den Lasten und bei den Entbehrungen des Krieges -
> noch die Juden als Geheimsaboteure, Agitatoren und Hetzer hätten. Wir
> würden wahrscheinlich jetzt in das Stadium des Jahres 1916/17 gekommen
> sein, wenn die Juden noch im deutschen Volkskörper säßen.

And yet among top party types they were quite open, at least until the Final
Solution actually began.

Hans Frank attended a meeting of top Nazi Party leaders on December 12, 1941
at which Hitler spoke. Four days later he reported to his leadership team in
the General Government.

http://www.yad-vashem.org.il/about_h...holocaust.html

....One way or another - I will tell you that quite openly - we must finish
off the Jews. The Fuehrer put it into words once: should united Jewry again
succeed in setting off a world war, then the blood sacrifice shall not be
made only by the peoples driven into war, but then the Jew of Europe will
have met his end. I know that there is criticism of many of the measures now
applied to the Jews in the Reich. There are always deliberate attempts to
speak again and again of cruelty, harshness, etc.; this emerges from the
reports on the popular mood. I appeal to you: before I now continue speaking
first agree with me on a formula: we will have pity, on principle, only for
the German people, and for nobody else in the world. The others had no pity
for us either. As an old National-Socialist I must also say that if the pack
of Jews (Judensippschaft) were to survive the war in Europe while we
sacrifice the best of our blood for the preservation of Europe, then this
war would still be only a partial success. I will therefore, on principle,
approach Jewish affairs in the expectation that the Jews will disappear.
They must go. I have started negotiations for the purpose of having them
pushed off to the East. In January there will be a major conference on this
question in Berlin,* to which I shall send State Secretary Dr. Buehler. The
conference is to be held in the office of SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich at
the Reich Security Main Office (Reichssicherheitshauptamt). A major Jewish
migration will certainly begin.

But what should be done with the Jews? Can you believe that they will be
accommodated in settlements in the Ostland? In Berlin we were told: why are
you making all this trouble? We don't want them either, not in the Ostland
nor in the Reichskommissariat; liquidate them yourselves! Gentlemen, I must
ask you to steel yourselves against all considerations of compassion. We
must destroy the Jews wherever we find them, and wherever it is at all
possible, in order to maintain the whole structure of the Reich... The views
that were acceptable up to now cannot be applied to such gigantic, unique
events. In any case we must find a way that will lead us to our goal, and I
have my own ideas on this.

The Jews are also exceptionally harmful feeders for us. In the
Government-General we have approximately 2.5 million [Jews], and now perhaps
3.5 million together with persons who have Jewish kin, and so on. We cannot
shoot these 3.5 million Jews,** we cannot poison them, but we will be able
to take measures that will lead somehow to successful destruction; and this
in connection with the large-scale procedures which are to be discussed in
the Reich. The Government-General must become as free of Jews as the Reich.
Where and how this is to be done is the affair of bodies which we will have
to appoint and create, and on whose work I will report to you when the time
comes....


--

Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."



Samuel Johnson

"XanonX" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
news:vh0t2p70fmcjcd@corp.supernews.com...

> "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:1cTPa.42999
>
> > Yup, the order to complete the Final Solution in the General Government.
>
>
> Who ordered the 'Final Solution?' I don't buy into that final solution
> stuff; Did Hitler order a final solution(A complete extermination of
Jews?)
> Where are the documents that show Hitler ordered the extermination of an
> entire race of people?

Who said there has to be a document? Make the case that a document had to
have been used for such an undertaking. What document ordered operation
Barbarossa? Can you show it to us?

> You people can say what ya want, but ordering the death of an entire race
is
> something that doesn't get passed down from WORD OF MOUTH.

On the contrary, that is the way it would most likely be ordered.

> Hitler had no problems with ordering euthanasia and signing his signature
to
> that, he sure wouldn't have no problem with sighing orders to gas the
Jews,
> yet none exist.

He had plenty of problems with ordering the euthanasia program under his
signature!

The program became known and he had to order it stopped, at least
officially.

And forced euthanasia, however despicable, is not genocide.

--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."

Samuel Johnson

"Steven Mock" <smock@nizkor.org> wrote in message
news:Xns93B6CD15DC3AFsmocknizkororg@206.172.150.13 ...
> "Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in news:vh13l5t5hauad9
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <smock@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns93B6B97953746smocknizkororg@206.172.150.14 ...
> >> "Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in
> >> news:vh114ic8oh0g1d@corp.supernews.com:
> >>
> >> > This is what the dictionary says:
> >> > "The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national,
> >> > racial, political, or ethnic group"
> >> >
> >> > GENOCIDE
> >> > Kinda like what the Jewish Bolsheviks did to the Mensheviks.
> >>
> >> Say wha? The Mensheviks had a greater proportion of Jews than the
> >> Bolsheviks.
> >
> > Yeah right. Got a URL?
>
> LOL! I see we have a real scholar here.
>
> Ever read a book, Tommy?
>

You made a claim, all I ask is that you back it up. LOL! Got a URL? Didn't
think so.

"Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
news:vh172b2l8ifabc@corp.supernews.com...

> "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:ln0Qa.46886$Ph3.4229@sccrnsc04...

> > "Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
> > news:vh13gli38qtt2b@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > > "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:sj%Pa.46990
> >
> > > > > > > Who ordered the 'Final Solution?' I don't buy into that final
> > > solution
> > > > > > > stuff; Did Hitler order a final solution(A complete
> extermination
> > of
> > > > > > Jews?)
> > > > > > > Where are the documents that show Hitler ordered the
> extermination
> > > of
> > > > an
> > > > > > > entire race of people?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Who said there has to be a document? Make the case that a
document
> > had
> > > > to
> > > > > > have been used for such an undertaking.
> > > > >
> > > > > You need to be realistic here Mathews. How in the hell could one
man
> > > order
> > > > > the EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE by word of mouth??
> > > >
> > > > By telling a few of his closest subordinates to do it.
> >
> > > It's possible, It's just hard for me to believe. I'm just trying to
> think
> > as
> > > a normal person would.

> > Do you think a normal person orders the genocide of an entire people?
>
> That's my point. You would have to be a retard to do shit like that.

No, not mentally deficient. Horrors against humanity are not committed only
by people of limited intelligence.

>I don't
> think Hitler was retarded. He was uh, what do you call German leaders?
> Chancellor I may have spelled that wrong, You know what I'm talking about.
> He must have been pretty smart to get that position.

There is much speculation about that. Certainly many of the leaders he had
around him were quite intelligent. That has nothing to do with whether they
were bigoted, hateful and murderous.

> I just don't see how a
> man that had the intalect to get his position could order such stuff as
> extermantion of a race of people.

Well, you seem to have a problem understanding that intelligence alone is
not a guarantee against horrific conduct.

>Ya know Mathews, I don't like niggers,

Then you are a bigot and racist.

>and
> they don't like me,

Gee, I wonder why!

>I fight those bastards. I don't like them but if I had
> the power right now to send all to a gas chamber I would't do it. My point
> is, he had to be normal to get his position...

A dictator does not have to be "normal" to get his position.

And some bigots are bloodthirsty, and some are not.

> > >I try to put my self in that position. Ok, lets say
> > > I'm commander at Auschwitz, and my commander says gas those people. I
> > would
> > > be like huh? Be they Jews or communist I could never have the heart to
> > send
> > > them to a gas chamber. Come on' man, normal people don't do shit like
> > that.

> > Which doesn't mean people didn't, now does it.

> I guess, People were burnt as witches and stuff, and from what I hear the
> crusades was brutal. But back then people didn't know any better.In
Hitler's
> day he knew better. YOU DON'T GO AROUND KILLING PEOPLE FOR NO REASON..

There is no evidence that people in 1940 knew any better than people in
1640.

> > Commandant Hoess of the Auschwitz camp wrote a memoir in which he
> discussed
> > why he carried out the order given to him by Himmler.

> Was he the one who kept changing his testimony?

There was very little change in his testimony.

But I'm referring to his 200 page memoir, written in prison.

> > > Why in the hell would you want to kill anyone who has never done
> anything
> > to
> > > you personally?

> > Antisemitism and bigotry in general is not rational.

> It don't matter, I don't like blacks but I don't want to send them to gas
> chambers. Jews hate me because I'm a gentile, would they want to gas all
non
> Jews? They proabaley would..

But extreme antisemitism in conjunction with the authoritarian power to act
did mean gas chambers during WWII. If you want to learn how people act, you
must study the evidence of history, which shows how they acted. Speculating
about it in the absence of evidence is not very productive.

> > > The thing is, If I was in a war fighting for American than I guess I
may
> > be
> > > able to shoot someone. But to just freaking send people to gas
chambers
> is
> > > not normal...........PEOPLE DON'T DO SHIT LIKE THAT.

> > Of course it isn't normal and of course people do. The Holocaust is
hardly
> > the only genocide or mass murder ever attempted.

> I know, but you're talking back before people knew any better.

The Armenian genocide was during WWI. The Cultural Revolution in China was
during the second half of the 20th century. The murder of tens of millions
in the Soviet Gulag and in the Ukranian starvation were in the 20th century.
Your notion that mankind left genocide behind is wrong.

> > > You would have to be
> > > some kind of monster. If I was running Auschwitz and they told me to
> just
> > > gas people, I would let them all go.
> >
> > But you weren't running Auschwitz, I'm afraid.

> No, but the people who were, Were humans. Unless you want me to beleive
that
> Germans were robots who have no feelings.

All genocides and mass murders in history were perpetrated by humans.

> > > > How was the Armenian genocide ordered?
> >
> > > Don't know anything about that.
> >
> > No written order has ever been presented.
> >
> > > > How was the mass murder of the Cultural Revolution in China ordered?
> >
> > > I know nothing about this either..
> >
> > Tens of millions killed. No written order ever found.
> >
> > You might want to look at this site to get a smattering of the evil
things
> > done in just the 20th century.
> >
> > http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html

> I will look into it.

When you do you will discover that the 20th century was one of the most
brutal periods in man's history, casting great doubt on your belief that
modern man is less susceptible to mass murder.

> > > > > We occupy
> > > > > and have complete control of a small mideast country as I types
> this.
> > Do
> > > > you
> > > > > think Bush could order the extermination of those people by word
of
> > > mouth?
> > > >
> > > > You really are silly!
> >
> > > If we wanted them dead, they would be dead. If Bush gave the order
they
> > > would be gone.

> > That's not the question. As the leader of a democratic country with a
> > certain system of values, he would not do it.

> But he could..And it would not be passed on by word of mouth

He could try. And it likely would be done by verbal order, since no
democracy would vote for such actions.

> > In any event, the question is whether the order would have to be
written.
> >
> > > > The difficulty of keeping secret a genocide like the Holocaust in
> modern
> > > day
> > > > Iraq is great. That has nothing to do with whether the order to
> attempt
> > it
> > > > is verbal or written.
> >
> > > > > No! it would have to be written orders from the top.
> >
> > > > No it wouldn't. Which is why you cannot make a case for why it
would.
> > >
> > > YOU DON'T DO SHIT LIKE THAT! German soldiers are no different than you
> or
> > I.
> > > I may be these guys comanding officer and I tell him to kill for no
> > reason,
> > > he's going to tell me to go to hell.
> >
> > Are murders different from you or I?

> Yeah they are. The only time I would kill would be in defense of my life
or
> my famlies life.

Then mass murderers are different from you or I. The Holocaust was
undertaken largely without German soldiers. The SS was the primary group
involved in the death camps.

> > > > >Do you really think
> > > > > Hitler met with the commanders of Auschwitz(And all of these other
> > camps
> > > > and
> > > > > said, Hey! Lets exterminate all of this people?
> >
> > > > Historians know he didn't. You obviously don't know that, and
> presumably
> > > > much else about the Holocaust. That being the case, why should your
> > > > incredulity about a process unknown to you be credited with any
> > > > seriousness?
> >
> > > Unlike you I try to think as a human. Try to put yourself in their
> shoes.

> > You don't need to. Many of them told us about what they did.
>
> Weren't they tortured? I got some linls on this..Want me to post them?

They were not tortured. Don't waste your time with denier websites.

> > > > >Yeah, that I could believe.
> > > >
> > > > You would do well to deal with what is proven. Save your beliefs for
> > > > religion.

> > > What is proven?

> > History, such as the Holocaust.

> > > > > Do I think that the extermination of an entire race of people was
> > > somehow
> > > > > passed on by word of mouth? Hell no!
> > > >
> > > > Why should that interest any of us?
> >
> > > Maybe you don't interset me?

> > Maybe your responses to my posts indicate otherwise.

> Well, then you need to stop responding to my post.

I'm not the one claiming lack of interest.

See!

> > > > > You should have more sense than to buy into that, But you buy into
> > > > > lampshades and soap, So what should one expect from a closed
minded
> > > > Gentile
> > > > > hating bigot like you.
> > > >
> > > > Lampshades were made at Buchenwald. Soap experiments likely occurred
> at
> > > the
> > > > Danzig Anatomical Institute. But neither of those things has
anything
> to
> > > do
> > > > with the topic, which is that a dictator who wishes to commit
genocide
> > is
> > > > unlikely to put his objectives in writing.
> >
> > > Where are the soap and lampshades? Name the holocaust museum that this
> can
> > > be seen in.
> >
> > The lampshade is in the US archives. I don't know where the soap is.
> >
> US archives?

The National Archives.

--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."

Samuel Johnson

"Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
news:vh14q4ldl64v0b@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
> "Patrick Keenan" <test@dev.null> wrote in message
> news:Ch%Pa.11375$Ag6.1068414@news20.bellglobal.com ...
> > "Tommy" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
> > news:vh0vjvm1dog23e@corp.supernews.com...
> > >
> > > "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > newsJ_Pa.46361$Ph3.4173@sccrnsc04...
> > > > "XanonX" <Tommy@NoSpam.asdf> wrote in message
> > > > news:vh0t2p70fmcjcd@corp.supernews.com...
> > > >
> > > > > "Philip Mathews" <philipmathews@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:1cTPa.42999
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yup, the order to complete the Final Solution in the General
> > > Government.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Who ordered the 'Final Solution?' I don't buy into that final
> solution
> > > > > stuff; Did Hitler order a final solution(A complete extermination
of
> > > > Jews?)
> > > > > Where are the documents that show Hitler ordered the extermination
> of
> > an
> > > > > entire race of people?
> > > >
> > > > Who said there has to be a document? Make the case that a document
had
> > to
> > > > have been used for such an undertaking.
> > >
> > > You need to be realistic here Mathews. How in the hell could one man
> order
> > > the EXTERMINATION OF AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE by word of mouth??
> >
> > It's a dictatorship. That's how they work. The person at the top
rules -
> > "dictates" what happens. The people below follow those orders.
Because
> > the top orders go only to a small circle, it is possible to rule orally.
> > As things go down the chain of command, where there are more people and
> > greater distances, documentation becomes necessary.
>
> You mean like Grorge Bush, and the Shurb Admin?

No.

>
> > > We occupy
> > > and have complete control

"complete control"? Are you kidding? If you're referring to Iraq, that
is *not* under "complete control".

> of a small mideast country as I types this. Do
> > you
> > > think Bush could order the extermination of those people by word of
> mouth?
> > > No!
> >
> > You may be missing this, but Germany under Hitler and the US under Bush
> have
> > different systems of government. It's not as simple a comparison as
> that.
>
> Not any more.............It's not we the people, Its we the politicians.
> Before, the Commander in Chief would have to get congressional approval
> before he could attack another country.

You must have missed the parts where the funding was authorized.

-pk