On 7/4/03 10:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <DzqNa.20849$ic1.400054@twister.tampabay.rr.com>
"Snubis" (Using PHONY e-mail address) wrote:

QUITE the post criticizing the USA. As an American, perhaps that
should be offensive to me. But it's not, really, because *most* of what
he wrote appears to be fairly objective, and it's fascinating to get this
much insight into what people on the other side of the ponds might be
thinking about us -- good or bad. (For some balance, though, I might
suggest that "Snubis" has ALSO provided the top 10 things that he
LIKES about the USA...) Having been to Europe a dozen times, I can
make a fairly substantial list of things that I both like *and* dislike
over there (such as their phenomenal transportation systems... rail and
autobahns... satellite phones... TV programming that's FREE of most of
the idiotic censorship that we still have in 'WAY-too-Puritanical UDA...
teh LACK of nudity phobias... their refreshingly liberal attitudes with
respect to sex (Hugh Hefner would LOVE it there, if he didn't already
have his own private libertine island rin California)... etc. on the good
side; difficulty of finding major shopping malls... and laundromats...
and pay phones from which international calls can be made easily, on
the down side... just for openers.

So is our way of life any of "Snubis" business -- since he apparently
lives in the UK? No -- if we want to be stuffy about it. And, yes, if
we are to avoid being hypocrites from the standpoint of our own First
Amendment rights.

After checking Google, I see that "Snubis" has posted to several
groups indicative that he is likely to be a teen, or in his early 20s.
If that's the case, his analysis of us from across the ocean is pretty
darned astute, despite some inacceracies. So is worthy of our
attention.

I've included the 3 groups that he apparently has posted this to,
in this post's crosspostings. Oddly enough, though, in my Google
search, I was unable to find his ORIGINAL post in ANY of 'em.
Only *response* to his originalpost. (Krisblake -- where did you ever
FIND his original post?)

All of this having been said, let's see where he's right an where he's
wrong. The following responses represent only MY opinions. That of
others may differ.

>10) TV.
>
> American TV is 99% trash, plain and simple.

I'd say that in terms of our BROADCAST networks (ABC, NBC, CBS,
Fox, WB, UPN) that might be true of perhaps 60%. Many of those
network shows are quite entertaining, though, including "Who Wants
to Be a Millionaire," which ORIGINATED in the UK! The game shows,
SOME of the reality shows, and SOME of the sitcoms are entertaining.
But those idiotic shows that seek out disfunctional people to make
utter fools of themselves -- yelling and screaming at each other over
boring and trivial matters -- UGH!! It's hard to believe that **anyone**
would even want to WATCH such trash! However, One other
broadcast network, PBS, also fits the "excellent" category, most of
the time.

On the other hand, many of the cable channels have excellent
programming MOST of the time... such as the Discovery channels,
Science channels, The History Channel, A&E, the Travel Channel,
etc., etc. are very good pretty close to 80-90% of the time. Maybe
"Snubis" can't access those.

For movies -- ONLY the premium channels, such as Cinemax, HBO,
Showtime, The Movie Channel, etc. are on the top of the heap --
because they are DEVOID of censorship! The closest thing we have
to the more liberal (regarding sex and language) attitudes found in
Europe. Turner Classic Movies is good, but mainly because the
classic movies they show generally don't contain anything that the
censors get out their scissors and blue pencils for. AMC, however,
("American Movie Classics") truly sucks!! Filled with censorship --
and NOWadays, with *commercials.* Not long ago, it was fairly
decent because ALL of its commercials were BETWEEN the
movies. They've RUINED that, and as a result I hardly ever watch
it anymore.

> The licensing system over here has it's flaws but at least it
> keeps the BBC as the highest quality and most respected
> broadcaster on the planet.

And they have *guts*, too!! They were so honest in their
criticisms of Israel, lately, that the thin-skinned Israeli government
chucked them out on their ear! Hopefully, before that happened,
they had honestly reported on ALL of the flaws of their system.

> American TV has been ruined by commercialism, ...

Awww. C'mon, now. Every now and then they actually
interrupt a series of commercials to bring us a program!

> ...and the "entertainment" it provides is merely low quality
> "chewing gum for the brain" from the idiot's lantern. All those
> channels are no good if the best you can do is "Friends."

I'm certainly with you on that last one! "Friends" is positively
INANE... and get this: contestants on "Fear factor" have to do
some ungodly stunts, of which the gross-out one is usually enough
to traumatize a person for life, just to win a paltry $50,000. That's
CHUMP change for a newtwork that can aford to pay EACH of
the "Friends" stars a MILLION dollars... per EPISODE! How
chintzy can they GET?!?

> 9) Walt Disney
>
> The archetypal American Dream. Shamelessly capitalist creator of
> America's childhood, twisting fairy tales and European myths into his
> own Americanised fantasies while growing fat and rich from the
> allowances of the innocent. Also a deviant pervert, despite his
> outward family image. The perfect metaphor for American society.

Totally disagree with you on this one! Disney has provided wonderful
entertainment for people of all ages for 2/3 of a century now. And their
freedom from censorship when it comes to having no problem with gays
enjoy a day at Disney World every year is very laudable.

> 8) Snacks
>
> Sorry guys, but when it comes to food of the sweet variety you're all
> fucking clueless. Chocolate in the US sucks, you wouldn't know a
> decent cake if it bit you on the ass, and donuts ain't all that.

I agree with you on the chocolate. European chocolate is about as
close to heaven on earth as such food gets. I especially remember
some that I obtained when i was in Lithuania!! Out of this world!! I
wish our chocolateers would go over there and take some lessons!!

> 7) The Klan.
>
> I don't think I need to say much more than it's a pretty fucked up
> country where so many fervent "Christians" feel the need to murder
> those that look different to them just to prove their love of God.

Actually, there is NOTHING Christian about the KKK. It's our single
MOST-infamous hate group. But Europe *used* to have an even worse
one -- the Nazis. And I understand that -- even though outlawed -- there
are still neo-Nazi groups active in Europe. Also, Europe has a GROWING
problem with Anti-Semitism. We've dispensed with most of *that* over
here. Even though small in numbers, one of America's biggest remaining
flaws in that regard is our Religious Radical Right -- the RRR Cult.
They are both noisy and noisome, and they don't give a rat's ass for
any of the personal liberties that they disagree with. They are
comprised mostly of highly-deluded and steeped-in-disinformation
ACTUAL christians, and a host of PSEUDO-Christians... ALL of whom
act in a totally UN-Christian manner. They seem to think that they are
the self-appointed ENFORCERS of Biblical precepts upon society in
general, but the Bible appointed NO Gestapo. And fortunately, most
Americans regard them as though they're our National Laughingstock.
They seek to interfere with people's PRIVATE lives and decisions, and
happily they just took a fairly-LETHAL slap in the face from the U.S.
Supreme Court last week when the so-called "sodomy" laws were all
struck down. As a result, gays i the USA may soon have legal same-sex
marriage... a right that they have ALWAYS deserved to have. Also, the
RRR is (impotently) opposed to safe and legal abortion-on-request -- but
have absolutely NO Biblical backing for that stance. BE VERY GLAD
that Europe is FREE from the infestation of the RRR cultists. And watch
out for them! Don't EVER let them get a foothold there!! And finally,
please be aware that the deluded and obnoxious, control-freakish
Christians of the RRR cult comprise only a mere TWO PERCENT of
America's Christians -- who are giving all the *rest* of the USA's, and
the world's, Christians a very bad name! 98% of American Christians are
very *normal* and FAIR-minded people who want NOTHING to do with
the hateful and ignorant agenda of the RRR cult.

Just to show you that we ARE a progressive trend, look at what's
happened to the USA's ignorant hate-agendas over the last 138 years:

-- Slavery -- EXTINCT
-- Opposition to Women's Right to Vote -- EXTINCT
-- Prohibition -- EXTINCT
-- Opposition to Birth-Control Pill -- EXTINCT
-- Segregation -- EXTINCT
-- Anti-Semitism -- ENDANGERED (Thankfully)
-- Anti-Choice (abortion) -- LAUGHINGSTOCK STATUS
-- Opposition to EQUAL Rights for Gays -- FADING FAST

Segregationists were a JOKE (i.e., "laughingstock status")
during the last few years before it became extinct. As opposition
to EQUAL rights for gays (with respect to housing, being parents,
marriage, and employment) continues to fade, the remaining
opponents first will become laughingstocks, and then that
hatefulness will end in extinction. Constant consciousness-raising,
as we saw awhile back on a "Primetime Thursday" episode on
ABC, featuring Rosie O'Donnell, is very helpful. (MOST of the
reporters and commentators in the MEDIA are INTELLIGENT...
with occasional exceptions, like George Will, who has a good IQ,
but wastes it on hyperconservatism.)

Historical precedents have CONSISTENTLY proven that
Americans OUTGROW movements of intolerance (such as ALL
of the above), and then REJECT them -- leaving them behind
FOREVER.

And THAT is EXTINCTION.

> 6) Sports.
>
> Baseball? Rounders, more like. The single dullest sport on the planet,
> even duller than cricket. Basketball? Girls play that over here until
> they hit their teens, when they find better things to do. The fact
> that you have to score 100 points to make it interesting says a lot.
> American Football? ***** rugby, more like. Ditch the pads, keep the
> same 15 guys out there for the full 80 minutes and keep the play going
> until someone gets killed and you've got yourselves a proper sport.
> And stop paying them $30 million to sit on a bench for four months of
> the year.

Actually, I find ALL organized sports totally boring and a waste of
time... IMO. And probably the best proof there is that half of the
population has IQs under 100. But for those who don't have much
else more interesting in their lives, I suppose it keeps them off the
streets. No further comment.

> 5) The Constitution.
>
> The single most annoying thing about American politics, and the
> cause of more left wing whining than any other sheet of paper in
> history. The First Amendment is a good idea in theory, admittedly,
> but the right to bear arms? See #1 for my opinions on that one.

Personally, i couldn't care less about the 2nd Amendment. I don't
own a gun, but have nothing against people who choose to. If they
repealed that amendment, I'd never miss it. And if it stays, that
wouldn't bother me a bit, either.

Otherwise, the Constitution is an EXCELLENT and living document.
Our system of checks and balances allows it to be adapted to the times,
as times change. The ONLY real danger to American liberties is if we
ever allow "conservatives" dominate our courts of appeal. Because the
LAST thing that such people are interested in conserving are any
personal liberties that they happen to disagree with. The wonderful
decision last week that emancipated gays in much the same way that
Roe vs. Wade emancipated American women, 30 years earlier, attests
to the NECESSITY that our JUDICIAL system must *always* be liberal.
It is the BEST defense against the erosion of our personal liberties.
(And BTW -- that decision last week wasn't ONLY celebrated by the
gays. It also was celebrated my the many MILLIONS of the gays'
straight ALLIES in the USA.)

> 4) Education
>
> The US High School diploma is all but worthless.

True. But it's even worse NOT to have one.

> In my final year of high school we had a mass induction of about
> 25 kids of various ages from Seattle, who all had to join classes with
> kids at least one, usually two years younger than them because the
> American school system is so far behind European standards. I've
> heard stories about UK high school graduates doing the reverse at
> US colleges -- getting bumped ahead because the American kids
> are being tought things we learned at16.

Your assessment is correct. I taught school for 10 years, and never
ceased to be amazed at the OBVIOUS things that 8th graders hadn't
learned. In geography, for example, MOST of the class had NO idea
where Kansas was (in the center of the USA), and many didn't even
know where Vermont was! (Which was particularly bad because we
were only 40 miles (65 km.) from Vermont at the time!) BIGGEST
problem with USA's educational system: virtually NO diciplinary backing
for the teachers. When time is wasted in the classroom with discipline,
less teaching gets done. A pretty universal problem. (And one that was
almost nonexistent 40-50 years ago.)

> 3) Obesity
>
> Linked with your obsession with junk food. Life is too cheap in the
> States, and when you mix in arrogance, greed and stupidity you get fat
> people. Hundreds of thousands of fat people. The last figures that the
> British media were having a good laugh at suggested that around 40% of
> all Americans have weight problems... that's about 150 *million*
> people. ...

More like 115 million, if your figures are correct. USA has a
population of 288 million. Do the math.

Anyway, THIS one really comes under the "None of your busiiness"
heading. Nor anyone else's. If a person get's fat, that is NO one's
business but that person's. Any more than it's anyone else's business
what a person's favorite color is.

> And if you do lose weight that you should never have had in
> the first place, you go on TV and cry with Sally Jesse Raphael about
> your miserable childhood...

See my comment below about that... your #2 item.

> 2) Therapy
>
> ...which brings me nicely to my second point. Shut the **** up
> about your horrible childhoods and just get on with it. All the bullshit
> psychiatry that goes on in America is the biggest joke in the western
> hemisphere right now. Self help books, anger therapy, $300 an hour
> sessions with some quack who just listens to your problems and then
> sends you a bill for advice you could have asked your mother for (if
> you know who she is), and because they have a certificate you think
> it's all going to be okay. Anywhere else we'd just forget about it,
> let the past go and get on with our lives.

Agreed. There is nothing much more STUPID than this sending of
"counselors" in if something goes wrong, somewhere, such as a drowning,
a shooting, a bombing, or whatever. Only a couple of decades ago,
BEFORE the age of mindless psychobabble, people got along just FINE
*without* counselors. What a bunch of bullcrap! And WHERE did this
wave of psychobabble even COME from. Such as, "Are you OK with that?"
What a STUPID way to ask the obvious question, "Is that OK with you?"

> 1) Crime
>
> Pete may have gone on and on about three little kids dying in the
> UK and how the whole country had come to a standstill, but here's
> something he didn't consider: that sort of thing is *rare* over here,
> and that's why it makes headline news nationwide.

JUST as infanticide is rare in the USA, and thus our "Susan Smiths"
-- the mere handful of them that there are -- make headlines HERE.

> You know how many people were shot and killed in the UK last year?
> Around 500. Crime in Britain is nothing, small change. There are more
> murders in LA and New York than there are in Britain.

Let's see now. Britain has what -- 65 million people? And the
combined populations of the NYC and L.A. metropolitan areas is
pretty close to 25-30 million...

You are doing an almost apples-and-oranges comparison. 65
million vs. 288 million. All that counts are the PER CAPITA crime rate
statistics.

> And we can walk to the grocery store without fear of having our
> shoes stolen at gunpoint to feed some teenager's crack habit.

Except for in some cities bad neighborhoods, the same is true here.

> Over here, that kid is drug free, and either working or finishing
> school.

You're telling me that there's no drug problem in the UK? Shall we
do a Google search and get the stats? I'm betting you're wrong about
that.

> Recently two of our people experienced what life in the US is
> like as they were held at gunpoint in their Kissimee hotel room
> and forced to perform sex acts, then the man was locked in the
> bathroom while the gunman raped his wife.

An anomaly. If that didn't make headlines, it SHOULD have!

> America the beautiful? Don't make me laugh.

Then don't. America has scenery that would knock your socks off!
And we're beautiful in many ways (our people and most of our ideals) that
you could never appreciate until you get to know us a LOT better. Come
on over and see for yourself. We have a complete IDIOT for a President,
but your PM isn't much better; they BOTH are warmongers. But at least
Tony Blair didn't employ THUGS to help him STEAL the Presidency.
But you can't judge the American people by our crooked politicians.
(However, when we don't get RID of those crooks at the ballot box,
that IS a very well-justified indictment of those who keep on re-electing
them.)


-- Craig Chilton xanadu222@mchsi.com