"toto" <scarecrow@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:uk7cgvgdil65an2okqbjs5b0g0k1tnf9b8@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 21:41:03 GMT, "Stan de SD"
> <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >Large retail corporations such as Wal-Mart and McDonalds piss off
liberals
> >to no end because they are highly successful operations that cater to the
> >TASTES and PREFERENCES of working-class America
>
> Is this the same working class that is going to be screwed out of its
> overtime pay if they make more than $22,000 a year?
>
> That is what the corporations are doing to the working class citizen,
> you know.... They intend to make people salaried so they can work
> 60 hour weeks without being paid overtime.


A couple of points here:

(1) Plenty of people in the military, white-collar and professional world
work 60+ hours/week, and don't get paid "overtime". In addition, those of us
who are self-employed, in addition to the work we do for our paying
customers, put in a lot of time on stuff like taxes, expenses, payroll, and
dealing with government regulation, and NEVER get compensated for it, with
our without overtime.

(2) I don't begrudge hourly blue-collar workers for their choice in
employment, as there is a role for everyone, but with any type of employment
option, there are trade-offs. Hourly people don't always command the highest
wages, but they have a certain amount of security and protection from the
government that others of us don't have. For one, they have to be paid by
the hours worked, whether they are necessarily productive or not - salaried
workers don't get to put another 5 hours on the clock if they dicked around
and needed more time to finish their work, and self-employed business types
don't get paid for all the effort they put into a proposal if the customer
doesn't sign on the dotted line. Secondly, the courts are a lot more
protective of workers who haven't been paid by employers that they are of,
for example, indendent contractors who haven't been paid by their customers.
I hear plenty of hourly workers bitching that they are getting a raw deal,
but ask them to go on salary, and watch them have a fit (don't EVEN suggest
that they might try their hand at being self-employed). Hourly workers trade
the prospects of possibly higher pay for the actual SECURITY of getting
paid, and knowing when they are going to get paid.

(2) Let's look at your case of somebody working 60 hours a week and getting
paid only "straight time". Given that overtime is typically
"time-and-one-half" over 40 hours, you're talking about receiving 60 hours
pay per week vs. 70, or a 14% reduction BEFORE payroll deductions (and with
graduated tax rates, the reduction after deductions is more like 10%). Now,
contrast that with the 20-35% of income that is confiscated by state,
federal, and local taxes. If you're so worried about "working class
citizens" being hosed out of their money, why don't you get indignant about
the real problem, and campaign for tax cuts instead?

> Lovely... but then I
> wonder if you ever worked at a job that was real work. I have..

Fine, tell us all about it... My typical work week has been about 60 hours
through most of my adult life, first as an aircrew member in the USAF, then
working and attending college at the same time, then later as a degreed
chemical engineer and a self-employed independent consultant. Ever worked a
24-hour shift? I have. Ever spent an entire night in the tropics humping
class A explosives onto a C-141, when it was 95 degrees and 95% humidity on
the flight line, so you could fly all the next day without any sleep? Ever
worked a job where the only "sleep" you got was throwing your flight jacket
on top of a cargo pallet, or catching cat-naps in a sleeping bag next to a
piece of equipment so you could get up every hour or two to check it out? I
have. What's the longest period where you have gone without working less
than 12 hours per day? Try 4 weeks straight, as I did trying to bring up a
new factory online in Ireland.

Don't preach to me about work, woman. Based on your socio-political
blatherings around here, I doubt you even have a clue. :O(

"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:yZENa.82310$Io.7434509@newsread2.prod.itd.ear thlink.net:

> My typical work week has been about 60
> hours through most of my adult life, first as an aircrew member in the
> USAF, then working and attending college at the same time, then later
> as a degreed chemical engineer and a self-employed independent
> consultant.

That's a scary thought - DumbShit and chemicals.

--
Bush Lied.

Regime change begins at home.

Dave Lister wrote:
>
> "Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:yZENa.82310$Io.7434509@newsread2.prod.itd.ear thlink.net:
>
> > My typical work week has been about 60
> > hours through most of my adult life, first as an aircrew member in the
> > USAF, then working and attending college at the same time,


> > then later
> > as a degreed chemical engineer and a self-employed independent
> > consultant.

Is that what they're calling crack and meth makers now?

> That's a scary thought - DumbShit and chemicals.
>
> --
> Bush Lied.
>
> Regime change begins at home.

--
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
Teddy Roosevelt

"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:N4zNa.246$tr1.28711127@newssvr14.news.prodigy .com...
> Was Enron one of your "highly successful operations that cater to the
TASTES
> and PREFERENCES of working-class America"?

No. First of all, it wasn't successful, and secondly, it was an example of
the negligence of the SEC under Clinton's watch.

However, thanks for chiming in, if only to remind us that you have nothing
of substance to contribute to the argument.

> "Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:PvmNa.26063$C83.2395539@newsread1.prod.itd.ea rthlink.net...
> > Given that this is the day we observe and reflect upon our freedoms, I
> > thought a discussion of another area where we are in danger of losing
our
> > rights would be in order. As anyone who bothered to learn anything about
> > history should know, our Founding Fathers were an entrepreneurial lot,
and
> > understood the virtue of industry, thrift, and a society where
productive
> > economic behavior was rewarded, not punished. Unfortunately, we have
> > individuals today who are trying to infringe upon yet another are of our
> > individual freedoms by restricting our right to engage in commerce as we
> see
> > fit.
> >
> > We have always had socialists, control-freaks, and other losers amongst
> our
> > midst who whine about how big business and corporations are evil, as a
> > justification for confiscating/redistributing wealth. However, we have
> > another group of equally annoying busybodies who have singled out, of
all
> > businesses, retail corporations for vilification and harassment. These
> > individuals think they have a right to dictate where Wal-Mart can build
> > stores, what Burger King can sell for lunch, and whether Home Depot can
> > offer contractor services, and have dedicated time to harassing these
> > operations.
> >
> > These NIMBY types generate a litany of excuses for their objections,
many
> of
> > them ill-documented, fuzzy, and in some cases contradictory; claiming
> > exploitation of manufacturing workers in other nations,
"quality-of-life"
> > issues, or simultaneously claiming that large chains produce inferior
> > service while at the same time threatening local family-owned
businesses.
> > However, animus can more readily be explained in terms of a cultural
> > phenomena that I characterize as Pissy Liberalism, the manifestation of
> how
> > liberals deal with the rejection of their way of thinking.
> >
> > Large retail corporations such as Wal-Mart and McDonalds piss off
liberals
> > to no end because they are highly successful operations that cater to
the
> > TASTES and PREFERENCES of working-class America, a group that Pissy
> Liberals
> > claim to sympathize with but in reality hold in contempt. Most
individuals
> > concerned with mundane tasks such as paying the bills, keeping their
cars
> > running, and their kids fed assign those tasks far more importance than
> > saving the whales, gay rights, or campaigning for world peace. In
> addition,
> > some if the pet obsessions of liberals (anti-SUV hysteria, anti-logging,
> > anti-mining, anti-gun) are seen as antagonistic to the lifestyle and
> > economic well-being of working-class Americans, resulting in their
> rejection
> > of significant parts of the liberal agenda. Liberals react to this
> rejection
> > by getting pissy, and single out the corporate institutions as symbolic
of
> > what they consider the uncouth and unenlightened messes. Hence, snide
> > comments about the goods and services they provide, and the type of
people
> > who patronize those places.
> >
> > Remember, when you hear a Pissy Liberal whining about these large
> > corporations, it's not the CEO's or stockholders they resent, but Joe
> > Six-Pack buying shotgun shells or Mary Sue picking up a burger, fries,
and
> > Coke. All one needs to do is listen to the condescension directed at
> > individuals who have the nerve to patronize and voice their support
these
> > businesses to come to that conclusion...
> >
> >
>
>
>

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:26:21 GMT, "Stan de SD"
<standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:

>"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:N4zNa.246$tr1.28711127@newssvr14.news.prodig y.com...
>> Was Enron one of your "highly successful operations that cater to the
>TASTES
>> and PREFERENCES of working-class America"?
>
>No. First of all, it wasn't successful, and secondly, it was an example of
>the negligence of the SEC under Clinton's watch.

Enron was quite successful until they got caught playing with funny
money

During the late 1990s and early 2000s, Enron was a trading powerhouse.
The firm, which had started as a US natural gas pipeline company,
started trading energies, then launched into new markets, including
metals, paper, water, weather and bandwidth. For a time, it seamed
that everything Enron touched turned to gold. The firm attracted some
of the best talent, first from the energy industry, and then from Wall
Street. In 2001, the Enron empire collapsed. The firm's bankruptcy was
the largest in US history, surpassed seven months later by WorldCom's
bankruptcy.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"toto" <scarecrow@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:07sggvkm8n7cfe7ck3k1v641o963j56b5c@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:26:21 GMT, "Stan de SD"
> <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:N4zNa.246$tr1.28711127@newssvr14.news.prodig y.com...
> >> Was Enron one of your "highly successful operations that cater to the
> >TASTES
> >> and PREFERENCES of working-class America"?
> >
> >No. First of all, it wasn't successful, and secondly, it was an example
of
> >the negligence of the SEC under Clinton's watch.
>
> Enron was quite successful until they got caught playing with funny
> money

And again, it happened due to lax oversight on Slick Willie's watch...

>
> During the late 1990s and early 2000s, Enron was a trading powerhouse.
> The firm, which had started as a US natural gas pipeline company,
> started trading energies, then launched into new markets, including
> metals, paper, water, weather and bandwidth. For a time, it seamed
> that everything Enron touched turned to gold. The firm attracted some
> of the best talent, first from the energy industry, and then from Wall
> Street. In 2001, the Enron empire collapsed. The firm's bankruptcy was
> the largest in US history, surpassed seven months later by WorldCom's
> bankruptcy.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits
>

"Stan de SD" <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote in news:By%Na.84235$Io.7568331
@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:

>> Enron was quite successful until they got caught playing with funny
>> money
>
> And again, it happened due to lax oversight on Slick Willie's watch...

No, DumbShit, it happened because Clinton couldn't get the Repug congress
to increase oversight authority for the SEC and to improve accounting
standards. If he had these problems would have been identified before they
became catastophies.

But you knew that, DumbShit.

--
Bush Lied.

Regime change begins at home.

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:22:57 GMT, "Stan de SD"
<standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>"toto" <scarecrow@wicked.witch> wrote in message
>news:07sggvkm8n7cfe7ck3k1v641o963j56b5c@4ax.com.. .
>> On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:26:21 GMT, "Stan de SD"
>> <standesd@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> >"Roger" <rogerfx@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:N4zNa.246$tr1.28711127@newssvr14.news.prodig y.com...
>> >> Was Enron one of your "highly successful operations that cater to the
>> >TASTES
>> >> and PREFERENCES of working-class America"?
>> >
>> >No. First of all, it wasn't successful, and secondly, it was an example
>of
>> >the negligence of the SEC under Clinton's watch.
>>
>> Enron was quite successful until they got caught playing with funny
>> money
>
>And again, it happened due to lax oversight on Slick Willie's watch...
>
You know, Stan, I am not a big fan of Clinton, but you really need
to take a look at Bush's complicity in this matter as well.

These facts elude your attention, Stan?

During the 2000 presidential campaign, the Center for Public Integrity
named Enron as the single largest patron of Bush’s entire political
career.

U.S. Trade Representative Robert Zoellick and White House economist
Lawrence Lindsey were paid Enron advisers before Bush appointed them
to his administration. Bush tapped Enron lobbyist and former Montana
Governor Marc Racicot to head the national Republican Party in late
2000.

Bush named Ken Lay to his Energy Department transition team and
resisted calls for price controls when Enron and other power companies
were accused of price gouging to exploit the West Coast power crisis.

As Enron’s crisis worsened through the first nine months of the Bush
presidency, Ken Lay got Bush’s help in three principal ways:

--Bush personally joined the fight against imposing caps on the
soaring price of electricity in California at a time when Enron was
artificially driving up the price of electricity by manipulating
supply. Bush’s rear-guard action against price caps bought Enron and
other energy traders extra time to gouge hundreds of millions of
dollars from California’s consumers.

--Bush granted Lay broad influence over the administration’s energy
policies, including the choice of key regulators to oversee Enron’s
businesses. The chairman of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission
was suddenly replaced in 2001 after he began to delve into Enron’s
complex derivative-financing schemes.

--Bush had his National Security Council staff organize an
administration-wide campaign to pressure the Indian government to
accommodate Enron, which wanted to sell its generating plant in
Dabhol, India, for $2.3 billion. Bush administration pressure on India
over the Dabhol plant continued even after Sept. 11, when India’s
support was needed for the war on terrorism. The administration’s
threats against India on Enron’s behalf didn’t stop until Nov. 8.
>>
>> During the late 1990s and early 2000s, Enron was a trading powerhouse.
>> The firm, which had started as a US natural gas pipeline company,
>> started trading energies, then launched into new markets, including
>> metals, paper, water, weather and bandwidth. For a time, it seamed
>> that everything Enron touched turned to gold. The firm attracted some
>> of the best talent, first from the energy industry, and then from Wall
>> Street. In 2001, the Enron empire collapsed. The firm's bankruptcy was
>> the largest in US history, surpassed seven months later by WorldCom's
>> bankruptcy.
>>
>>

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits