rbbomber wrote:

<snip>

> > Two facts.
> >
> > One, no NORC issued report on the Two Thousand election exists.
> >
> > Two, votes are not counted. Ballots are counted and votes are
> > determined. That one, or more, way existed to count ballots
> > which would given the election to Al Gore Junior does not show
> > that either the certified vote total was wrong, or that the new
> > vote total was any more reliable than the old.
> >
> > Showing a different result, in of itself, does not establish that
> > the different result was the correct result.
> >
> > David
>
> David, we have gone through this sophistry earlier. You know better.
> If not, please read the full NORC report at your library.
> --Russ

There is no NORC issued report. See for yourself:

http://www.norc.org/fl/

David

David

> Dear Mr. or Ms. Chain Smoker,
> The only recount that matters, NORC's Florida statewide one--all
> counties, all precincts--shows that Mr. Bush did not win. Not
> incidentally, Florida law requires such recounts in certain close
> elections, and Judge Lewis was ordering it when the 5-4 United States
> Supreme Court order stopped the counting. Neither independent recount
> nor history can vindicate the partisan decision in _Bush v. Gore_.
> --Russ


In addition to that, the recount makes no attempt to factor in the 10s
of 1000s of intentionally disenfranchised blacks, who had a legal
right to vote.

I highly recommend everyone read the first chapter of Greg Palast's
"The Best Democracy Money Can Buy".

Republican efforts to disenfranchise blacks were a three-pronged
attack:

1) not allowing many blacks to register to vote
2) not allowing many registered blacks from voting based on wrong info
regarding criminal history
3) using shitty voting machines in black districts that threw outand
enormous percentage of votes in comparison to white districts

I'm not going to even discuss butterfly ballots, but we all know that
Pat Buchanan is not *that* popular with Jewish people.

The idea that there are people who just want to "move on" and "get
over it" is a disgrace. It is completely unpatriotic to care that
little about the democracy you are blessed to live in, that you would
poo-poo a stolen presidental election, and not try to learn all you
can about the shady bullshit that went on.

rbbomber wrote:

> I'm not interested at all in Mr. Gore nor in the past. We need to
> look ahead, to prevent future fiascos like 2000. Any suggestions?
Refreshing.
Ship all the unemployed women we can find to Iraq with flak jackets and
guns. Let them 'man' the roadblocks. It will **** with the heads of the
Jihadim big time to consider attacking women. It will present a new
model to the girls growing up there about what life is really like in a
democracy.

rbbomber wrote:

<snip>

> > > David, we have gone through this sophistry earlier. You know better.
> > > If not, please read the full NORC report at your library.
> > > --Russ
> >
> > There is no NORC issued report. See for yourself:
> >
> > http://www.norc.org/fl/
> >
> > David
> >
> > David
>
> David, go to your library and read it.
> --Russ

No such report exists. Refer to the NORC web site.

David

"rbbomber" <rbbomber@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:7e483417.0307051053.c3fa96c@posting.google.co m...
> "Chain Smoker" <joe@noname.com> wrote in message
news:<be4524$395$05$1@news.t-online.com>...
> > "rbbomber" <rbbomber@netzero.com> wrote in message
> > news:7e483417.0307031753.14f2a3fb@posting.google.c om...
> > > "Chain Smoker" <joe@noname.com> wrote in message
> > news:<be28ut$ic$06$1@news.t-online.com>...
> >
> > <snipped>
> >
> > > > CNN is no friend of GWB. If it is partisan, it should skew against
him.
> > It
> > > > doesn't because the facts are plain. GWB beat your loser, just as
he'll
> > do
> > > > again in 2004.
> > >
> > > Dear Ms. Smoker,
> > > I hold no brief for Mr. Gore and have no interest in him. If you
> > > have Googled "NORC" you know that when all valid Florida votes are
> > > counted Mr. Bush does not win. Your best bet in learning from the
> > > post-election ballot studies is more than a website--it's the full
> > > NORC study, available at your library.
> > > --Russ
> >
> > Available at my library? Do they have those documents here in Germany?
As
> > for the Google search, I did do one. How did you think I found the CNN
> > article? I first tried the NORC web site, but it gives no real
indication
> > either way, as far as I saw.
>
> Try again, Ms. Smoker. NORC reported the results of nine
> scenarios, each undertaken in response to specific questions raised in
> the Florida fiasco of 2000. One of these gives the results of what
> happens had Mr. Gore gained a recount only in the four Florida
> counties he chose, with nothing done elsewhere--the reult is that he
> still loses. But the scenario that really counts for you and me as
> citizens and for history is the one in which the ballots in all
> precincts, in all counties, are studied. In that, Mr. Bush does not
> win.
> Yes, very likely the materials are available in U. S. Armed
> Forces Libraries in Germany. If not, they are most likely obtainable
> through interlibrary loan.
> I'm not interested at all in Mr. Gore nor in the past. We need to
> look ahead, to prevent future fiascos like 2000. Any suggestions?
> --Russ

They do not have those items at my library. I wish they did, because I'm
not prepared to take your word for it. Not that you'd lie about it, but
maybe you misunderstood, remembered it inccorrectly, or whatever. Give me a
URL and I'll look at it.

About fixing things so the fiasco cannot happen again, that has 2 possible
answers.

1) they need to upgrade, modernize, and standardize voting registration,
procedures, and machinery.

2) they will never prevent this sort of thing from happening again because
leftists are whiners by nature; every time one of them loses an election by
a narrow margin, they whine and moan about everything from imagined
registration irregularities to poor ballot design (though I think it was a
leftist who designed the ballot that tricked the stupid people in Palm Beach
County into voting for Buchannan).

I think answer #2 is the correct one, though I'd still like to see as much
of answer #1 as possible.

"Day Brown" <daybrown@hypertech.net> wrote in message news:3F06BF8B.A213CA61@hypertech.net...
> Chain Smoker wrote:
> 1) they need to upgrade, modernize, and standardize voting
> registration,
> > procedures, and machinery.
> I was a poll watcher in 1998. Never again. Half of the voters were AARP,
> many of whom complained to me cause they couldnt find where to vote for
> Dole against Clinton.

I've been a poll worker too in a half dozen elections, and while I'd
say your description is still pretty much accurate I have noticed a
marked improvement the last several years. This country has been
divided into two distinct groups -- those who access the internet to
get their own news and information, and those who sit on a couch
and eat the spoonfed crap that's fed to them by our major media.
The first group is relatively well informed while the second continues
to wallow in their own ignorance.

> The number of dim bulbs and impaired reasoning
> powers is several orders of magnitude larger than those who are able to
> follow your well reasoned arguments about economics and the
> constitution.

> Look at the campaign ads of all the demogogues which were crafted by
> spin doctors, and when you add up all the results, it is plain to see
> that elections are a farce.
>
> Logic and rational policy has very little to do with it.

As bad as our system is, the alternatives are much worse.

RickW

rbbomber wrote:

<snip>

> > > > There is no NORC issued report. See for yourself:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.norc.org/fl/
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > David
> > >
> > > David, go to your library and read it.
> > > --Russ
>
> Refer to your library, David. It has nine scenarios, each
> reporting the results of specific questions. One, for example, reports
> what happens had Mr. Gore gained recounts only in the four counties he
> chose, with no changes in any other county--the result was he still
> lost to Mr. Bush. But in the scenario that really matters--the one in
> which ballots in all precincts, all counties--are studied, Mr. Bush
> does not win. But you know that.
> --Russ

NORC never issued an report on their survey. You can't find a
report that never existed. I have cited the NORC web site and
they list no report, and mention no report. That is pretty
definitive.

David

"Chain Smoker" <joe@noname.com> wrote in message news:<be7a0d$q9a$03$1@news.t-online.com>...
> "rbbomber" <rbbomber@netzero.com> wrote in message
> news:7e483417.0307051053.c3fa96c@posting.google.co m...
> > "Chain Smoker" <joe@noname.com> wrote in message
> news:<be4524$395$05$1@news.t-online.com>...
> > > "rbbomber" <rbbomber@netzero.com> wrote in message
> > > news:7e483417.0307031753.14f2a3fb@posting.google.c om...
> > > > "Chain Smoker" <joe@noname.com> wrote in message
> > > news:<be28ut$ic$06$1@news.t-online.com>...
> > >
> > > <snipped>
> > >
> > > > > CNN is no friend of GWB. If it is partisan, it should skew against
> him.
> It
> > > > > doesn't because the facts are plain. GWB beat your loser, just as
> he'll
> do
> > > > > again in 2004.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Ms. Smoker,
> > > > I hold no brief for Mr. Gore and have no interest in him. If you
> > > > have Googled "NORC" you know that when all valid Florida votes are
> > > > counted Mr. Bush does not win. Your best bet in learning from the
> > > > post-election ballot studies is more than a website--it's the full
> > > > NORC study, available at your library.
> > > > --Russ
> > >
> > > Available at my library? Do they have those documents here in Germany?
> As
> > > for the Google search, I did do one. How did you think I found the CNN
> > > article? I first tried the NORC web site, but it gives no real
> indication
> > > either way, as far as I saw.
> >
> > Try again, Ms. Smoker. NORC reported the results of nine
> > scenarios, each undertaken in response to specific questions raised in
> > the Florida fiasco of 2000. One of these gives the results of what
> > happens had Mr. Gore gained a recount only in the four Florida
> > counties he chose, with nothing done elsewhere--the reult is that he
> > still loses. But the scenario that really counts for you and me as
> > citizens and for history is the one in which the ballots in all
> > precincts, in all counties, are studied. In that, Mr. Bush does not
> > win.
> > Yes, very likely the materials are available in U. S. Armed
> > Forces Libraries in Germany. If not, they are most likely obtainable
> > through interlibrary loan.
> > I'm not interested at all in Mr. Gore nor in the past. We need to
> > look ahead, to prevent future fiascos like 2000. Any suggestions?
> > --Russ
>
> They do not have those items at my library. I wish they did, because I'm
> not prepared to take your word for it. Not that you'd lie about it, but
> maybe you misunderstood, remembered it inccorrectly, or whatever. Give me a
> URL and I'll look at it.
>
> About fixing things so the fiasco cannot happen again, that has 2 possible
> answers.
>
> 1) they need to upgrade, modernize, and standardize voting registration,
> procedures, and machinery.
>
> 2) they will never prevent this sort of thing from happening again because
> leftists are whiners by nature; every time one of them loses an election by
> a narrow margin, they whine and moan about everything from imagined
> registration irregularities to poor ballot design (though I think it was a
> leftist who designed the ballot that tricked the stupid people in Palm Beach
> County into voting for Buchannan).
>
> I think answer #2 is the correct one, though I'd still like to see as much
> of answer #1 as possible.

I'm not aware that leftists whine any more or any less than
rightists do.
As to getting believable results, I think there are lots of
possibilities. One is to bar partisans from vote-counting
responsibilities (Katherine Harris, Florida's Secretary of State,
charged with "certifying" the results in 2000, was Mr. Bush's campaign
co-chair for the state.) Florida law requires full recounts in certain
close elections. In 2000, as close an election as ever, no full
statewide recount was ever undertaken (and still has not been). The
NORC study showed that a full state-wide recount indicated that Mr.
Bush did not win.
If you're looking for NORC results, try googling again on NORC.
They should at least give you the nine scenarios and their results.
There's no need to take my word for anything; your library can get you
the full NORC study through interlibrary loan.
--Russ