"John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MvuWe.85440$xl6.27468@tornado.tampabay.rr.com ...
> Your assumption that I have a superiority complex is so far off base, it's
> silly.

Is it? Read on.

> Having had a much wider experience than you with military folks I can
> categorically state that I would hire a recently and honorably discharged
> veteran than almost anyone else, given similar qualifications. If you had
> been in the military you would know why.

Sounds pretty "superior" to me. Especially the last line. I've never been
in the military, so I can't possibly know hide nor hair about anything
military. Nope, not superior at all, nope, not at ALL.

Suffice it to say, your experience in the military is clearly tainting your
viewpoint of the military. You clearly cannot talk about this subject
without your prejudice in favor of the military sneaking in. It's no
surprise, mind you, the military is DESIGNED to gel a group of individuals
together, making leadership that much easier. It should come as no shock
that you, a veteran, would think highly of other veterans. You were
indoctrinated to think that way, as part of your training.

> I have misplaced a survey done a few years back, regarding this same
issue.
> It was a series of questions asked from managers and human resources
> professionals. Something like 85% said that Vets make better employees.

That's not surprising. Again, I'm not talking about the abilities of vets
to be good workers. But that doesn't make them good PEOPLE. People are
people, no matter what walk of life you come from. There are rejects and
there are gems. The military has a tendancy to highlight the good in good
people, and the bad in bad people. Thankfully there are more good people
than bad people, but still, people will never be simply "good" because of
their profession. People are good on their own. The military has little to
do with it, except to amplify the good or bad.

> Maybe in your industry you don't see it, but Vets know what hard work is.

I'm sure they do. I'm curious to know how you make the connection between a
hard worker and a good person. I know plenty of hardworking assholes. I'm
sure you do as well. It's obvious, then, that employability is fairly
irrelevant a person's character.

> P.S.
> Your web site was down a while ago.

Actually, my router took a dump just this week. I honestly didn't think
anyone would really notice(I haven't paid much attention to my activity logs
lately).

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

John my post was about today's people, that includes today's army navy etc.
don't make something big outta this as the truth is the truth.....like it or
not...sorry ;-)our children are the first generation in HISTORY that also
tells the parent what to DO !! nice very nice...not me cause I would still
kick them in the seat of pants. hehehaha Just look around you and you will
see that. re-read what i sent as an OT and address that just for the heck of
it....
ps tomorrow my son Marcello plays at the tourny here in san diego...div111
x-ball...they are the best in the division...team name san diego
aftermath....play paintball and have fun...Jeff BTW is quite a person who
can easily be a debate captain , not to say you can't but Jeff is also good
honest person who I have proof of what i say. take it easy John and to your
whole family god bless.
"John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MvuWe.85440$xl6.27468@tornado.tampabay.rr.com ...
> Your assumption that I have a superiority complex is so far off base, it's
> silly. I was clearly talking about today's military youngsters, not
myself.
> I'm 53.
>
> Having had a much wider experience than you with military folks I can
> categorically state that I would hire a recently and honorably discharged
> veteran than almost anyone else, given similar qualifications. If you had
> been in the military you would know why.
>
> I have misplaced a survey done a few years back, regarding this same
issue.
> It was a series of questions asked from managers and human resources
> professionals. Something like 85% said that Vets make better employees.
>
> Maybe in your industry you don't see it, but Vets know what hard work is.
>
> Have a good day!
>
>
> John
>
>
> P.S.
>
> Your web site was down a while ago.
>
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OtKdnYk0LKsw9bfeRVn-1A@comcast.com...
> > "John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:jZsWe.85436$xl6.3794@tornado.tampabay.rr.com. ..
> >> Having worked extensively with troops, I can, without a doubt, state
that
> >> yes, as a groop, soldiers have more character, dicipline, dedication,
and
> >> maturity than the average guy on the street. I'm talking about the male
> >> troops.
> >
> > A recent argument had over the character of soldiers leaves little doubt
> > that they are, as a group, subject to the same failings as any other
> > sector
> > of the public. Most specifically, their rates of abuse, alcohol,
spousal,
> > and child abuse, are all in line with norms for the population as a
whole.
> > While I only have seen evidence of those particular things, I would
> > imagine
> > that soldiers, as a group, are not terribly different, character wise,
in
> > any other respect, from the general population.
> >
> >> They have to be High School graduates. they can't have any felonies or
> >> serious misdemenors on their records. Look at the difference between
them
> >> today and the VietNam era draftee.
> >>
> >> Any employer worth their salt knows this, Mr. MCSD.
> >
> > That a person has no criminal record is no indication of their
character.
> > Anyone with a BRAIN knows this, Mr. NotAnMCSD. To say otherwise would
be
> > to
> > think that a person without a criminal record is nothing less than a
> > saint.
> > I can only assume that YOU have some skeletons in your closet that you
> > aren't proud of, regardless of whether or not you have a criminal
record.
> >
> > It sounds to me like you're buying, hook line and sinker, the line being
> > touted by the marketing staff in charge of the armed forces public
service
> > messages. It also sounds like you actually joined the military, and
this
> > is
> > where the belief was reinforced.
> >
> >> After going through basic, advanced, and all the other stuff they go
> >> through, most any civilian job is easy.
> >
> > Ah, there it is! The "I was in the military so I'm better than a
civvie"
> > superiority complex. I was wondering when that would show up.
> >
> >> Have you even been in the military yourself?
> >
> > Nope. I've known enough military people to know that while what you are
> > saying is generally accepted as the truth, simple examination of facts
can
> > easily show this perception to be nothing more than marketing hype.
Feel
> > free to examine the statistics yourself. DOJ keeps pretty decent
military
> > crime statistics, and they compare, population wise, to the general
> > population, across the board.
> >
> > I can say this much, I've met all types of military people in my
lifetime.
> > And, true to form, the people I meet follow the general population
trends
> > almost to the letter. In general, at any given time, in any given
> > population, you'll find about 80% of them would be considered "by the
> > book"
> > law abiding, generally decent people. The other 20% tend to be "screwed
> > up
> > in some way", a variety of ways, but summed up with simply "messed up".
> >
> > In the military, this tends to manifest itself in one of two ways. On
the
> > one hand, the good ones are shaped by the training. It turns them from
an
> > average joe into a solid, responsible, respectable soldier, like you
> > describe above. On the OTHER hand, the bad ones are deformed by the
> > training. They drink too much, they get loud, obnoxious, they beat
their
> > wives, abuse their children, in that obscenely military way that
involves
> > a
> > HUGE superiority complex, as you displayed above. When that superiority
> > complex is used correctly, it can instill respect and command authority,
> > it's intended purpose. When used in the negative way, it leads to
> > violence,
> > anger, and retribution, often on those least able to fend it off.
> >
> > Make no mistake about it, two of my very best friends are ex-military,
and
> > both were "shaped", not "deformed" by their training. I have great
> > respect
> > for THEM, because of who they are. I do NOT have great respect for
> > "military folks" just because they were in the military. A person has
to
> > EARN respect, it is never just "given" because of their status or
> > occupation.
> >
> > I'll note for the record that I am NOT saying military folks are bad,
per
> > se, just that they are human beings, subject to the same problems we all
> > have. As such, it's EXTREMELY unfair to make comparison to "kids in
Iraq"
> > when talking about kids in general, holding them up as the shining
beacon
> > that is what represents the youth of today. They are no better or worse
> > than any other kid.
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
> > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Let us see here ;-)

Military vs Civilian:

Basic and Advanced Training?
Training in controlled environment induces direct results of
certain behaviors, attitudes and responses to given situations.
Therefore Basic and Advanced training camps/schools are a very good
thing.

Recently Discharged Military Personnel ?
Yes as a whole make good workers as they still have the
programming of doing what you are told and what is expected, NOW
SOLDIER!!!

80% Good, 20% Bad?
Sounds about roughly right. Military are people also despite
all the programming and conformity to certain requirements and
standards. Been involved with placement of most ranks into the
judicial system. Military tends to hold their people to a more
enforced standard as they use both the Civilian Laws and the UCMJ
(Uniform Code of Military Justice) which can be more generalized for a
"catch all" with non conformity.

Just an example: Domestics are more widely recognized in the
military as family housing is for the family not the Military person.
If a Military person has a problem at the house with their spouse, the
Military person is placed in the barracks and the spouse stays in the
barracks until resolution can be met and guaranteed. Which means peer
pressure and Provost Marshall does a docket report that is read by all
commanders on the base including post commander. This in turn means
the entire chain of command gets involved with the follow up and
discipline if needed.

So as a civilian you can get away with a lot more in a lot of
different categories. Especially since a lot of people have neighbors
who are superficial friends only. They do not want to get involved
and only acquaint themselves as a friend by proximity (harsh but think
about how true). In Military Housing which looks like a regular
neighborhood (but very clean, as mandated by rules) but most places
just dwell there and not socialize as everyone is considered a
transient. Most do not participate or socialize with others as they
know it is not a permanent association of being "next door" so
friendships are normally nothing more than acquaintances if that. This
in turn results in a "Just passing through attitude".

The thing I am pointing out here is that most Active Military
Personnel live in a direct and continuo's atmosphere of peer pressure
and command/boss influence and absolute control. So while a recently
discharged person (attitudes still fresh in mind) makes a good hire do
not forget sooner or latter their attitude generally changes as they
become more relaxed with less governing and they succumb to societies
norm.


Overall, Military personnel are becoming more lackadaisical with
society because they are recognizing that whatever they do they are
still given a place to stay and pay. Promotions beyond E-4 are
normally given as recognition of knowing and following the expected
norms (this is a generalization) of the military community. Failure
to comply results in a lot of peer pressure and command/boss
involvement as well as involvement being made public.

Just a further note which would you rather do?:
Be in the military and get caught for speeding on post/base
which, results in a fine, insurance hikes and being publicly ridiculed
and disciplined by your chain of command (which could include the
impoundment of your vehicle). Do not forget the docket report that is
made public across base.

Be a civilian and get caught speeding down the local roads and
pay your fine and move on.


**FYI, Alaska posts all law enforcement involvement in the local
papers where the offense occurred and your place of residence (yes,
that could be two different newspapers) This includes Criminal and
Traffic Violations in the local newspapers. This includes who,what,
where, when and how the laws where violated and enforcement. They
also post in the newspapers after court judgment the resulting
penalties and enforcement.

So think about it if your job is a truck driver and you get caught
speeding, yes, your boss will find out. If you are a wife beater,
yes, your neighbors will know and rat you out the next time ;-). If
you are an arsonist, yes, you will be a primary suspect in all fires.

It is like the three car behind you rue/law. This is where when
driving on two lane roads you are to pull over and let other vehicles
pass when there are three or more following behind you. Alaska Law
Enforcement does enforce this law as well as all others within the
state (Unlike a lot of other states where law enforcement is at the
officer's convenience or mood). So when you receive this citation it
goes in the newspaper and it is made public that you are an
inconsiderate jerk when driving a vehicle. Do not forget they list
your vehicle and all when posted in the newspaper so if you get popped
for DUI (Alaska mandatory License suspension) others will know that
you are not supposed to even be on the rode.

Alaska has taken the Military Idea of this to good lengths and I love
it. There are some other states that do this somewhat but it is
growing.

****Yes, I like the Public Awareness Method of enforcement as it
directly lets you know that other people know and are watching.****

It somewhat reduces the "I do not care" and "Let me see what I can get
away with" attitudes as it will be known about your personality and
morals.

I drifted the subject to a little different tangent but the point is
made. ;-)

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 01:47:02 -0400, Miaviator <miaviator@stormesi.net>
wrote:

>It would seem that there is a lack of information. troops these days
>specifically ones deployed to iraq do contain booth the best and the
>normal, but if you haven't served or served in combat do not down talk
>the charachter of a soldier.. alchohol abuse substance abuse, yes
>these things happen upon return from a deployment, not everyones brain
>is hardwire for things like meeting a successfull suicide bomber legs
>arms and all the other peices. and not everyone can handle waking up to
>the news that johnnys return home barbecue is cancelled because he's
>dead. but those who have served in actual combat can be depended on
>when a job needs to get done.

I am sorry but you directly related it to a job, which it is for the
most part. Alcohol abuse and substance abuse as well as any rules
violations while on the job (especially combat) are met and punished
severely while on assignment be it regular deployment or
combat(especially combat).

I am not trying to belittle anything especially the job the guys and
girls do when called upon to go wherever and whenever. But if you
think about it "Enlistment" (Officer or Enlisted/Non-Officer) is
normally performed with a pledge/swearing of an oath (which is an
acceptance). This you can consider as an acceptance and especially at
this time an acknowledgement of what you might be asked to do and
give. Now further think about it as a lot of times the family is so
called "Behind You" and your decisions so they to have an
understanding and an also an acceptance of what may be called of you
and the possible results of these actions.
I feel there is no need for someone to go back home and get
drunk or whatever may be a similar action to relax and forget because
it does not work! I have several friends that have tried. I would
suggest instead that they take a break (vacation) from life and go see
America and our freedoms (which may be getting less but still more
than a lot of other places) to reflect and be thankful for what we/you
do have and why you do. I know for a fact that it is a practiced idea
that when a unit returns from deployment or whatever and everything
(equipment and such) is squared away and accounted for that the unit
is given "Free Time" to relax and such and they also provide free
counseling (a lot of times encouraged) and stuff to help their people
mentally recover from what has occurred.

>
>stay in your scope if your not a soldier and haven't been there YOU
>DON'T KNOW.
>
I know that this does not apply to me ;-)

For further info I encourage everyone that is able and allowed to join
the service even if it be for only 2 years. I think it is an
excellent way to jump into the "Education of Life" and to get an
academic education instead of squandering what little your parents
have been able to save in today's society. That is unless they are
independently wealthy/rich which in that case please share. ;-)

The kid was trying to play me for a fool, and I knew better. 50's?
Probably so. They had a lot more respect for authority then, since people
actually still HAD authority. 60's? I don't know about that. You're
starting to get into that whole counter-culture hippy thing. Thank god they
all sold out and became corporate sharks by the 80's.

MY attitude has nothing to do with it. All I expect when someone walks in
the door is for them to present themselves in a professional manner. Pant's
down around your ankles is not it.

Wages has nothing to do with it. If a person's underlying character is not
there, all a high wage does is make him happy for the first week until he
starts deciding that I "don't pay him ENOUGH to do this/that".


"John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:YgsWe.85435$xl6.65796@tornado.tampabay.rr.com ...
> I have no idea what you mean by being 'stroked'. I just posted an honest
> question and an opinion to what I perceived to be an honest post and
opinion
> on your part.
>
> So, when was the youth up to your expectations? 1960's ? 1950's?
>
> I'm sorry you're pissed that it's hard to find good help. Maybe a
different
> attitude or higher wages would help.
>
> There's a lot of great youth around. Many of them are in Iraq.
>
>
>
>

I think maybe the points are getting confused here. Are people in the
military better people? I suppose it depends on your definition of better.
Are they harder working, better educated (don't laugh, I'll explain), more
disciplined (THEE single biggest difference), and more respectful? You
bet. They are still people like everyone else, but when it comes to crunch
time and time to ""do the job", they are better.

I'd say the vast majority of today's youth are just as capable of displaying
those qualities but the sad fact is that they don't. In the military you
either get with the program, or you do the sea-bag drag and head back to the
block with the rest of your long haired, undisciplined, tree huggin hippy
freak buddies.

Unless things have changed, in order to be in the military you have to be a
high school graduate, or at least have a GED. In order to be an officer you
MUST have a college education. Most civilian management does, but not all.
Higher echelon management yes, but lower and middle management not
necessarily so. It's no lie that today's military is better educated as a
whole than it's ever been. It's not quite the dumping ground it used to be.

I think that is the big difference. In the military there is discipline.
There is discipline because it is ENFORCED, where for the most part in the
civilian world it is not. You learn how to take orders, respect authority,
and do your job in a professional manner....because if you don't, you are
seriously held accountable for it and all the whining and crying in the
world isn't going to help you. Some military people truly learn these
qualities, others exhibit them for no other reason than they HAVE to in
order to stay out of trouble. They wear it all like a shirt, and discard it
as soon as they are discharged. Others just can't do it and find themselves
back on the street on in the brig.

Are the ones that take it to heart better people? Maybe not, but they for
sure make better citizens and better employees. For the record I AM ex
military (Marine Corp) and I AM prejudiced in that I think the USMC is the
single best trained and disciplined branch of the military. With that said,
I've experienced both extremes in the civilian work force. Ex-military that
took things to heart, and it transferred into their civilian life/job, and
the ones who either just did their time and dropped all their training once
out, or got booted because they couldn't hack it. There are a LOT of
"Marines" that get booted because they can't hack it. Close to 50% never
make it through boot camp.


You're an intelligent guy Jeff, but you can't make truly informed opinions
on EVERYTHING just because you've read all the books, or rubbed shoulders
with some folks that could tell you about this or that. You'd have to work
with these people on a daily basis in their environment in order to see the
differences.

Now with THAT said, boy am I going to piss of some military folks! IMNSHO,
the breakdown of the military from best to worst is as follows.

Marine Corp: Overall the best trained, best disciplined, and most highly
motivated of any. They contain all aspects of all other branches of the
service. Ground forces, air forces, and the Navy is our bus drivers. There
is a reason they are the point men for any nasty ugly ass job that needs
done. Brainwashed so hard in boot they think they are invincible, but
dammit, those guys will bust through a door KNOWING there is a good chance
of getting turned into hamburger on the other side. They trust their
buddies to back them up and patch them back together when it's all over (god
bless Corpsman, best thing the Navy produced in a Marine's eye).

Navy: Probably the best trained but not so high on the discipline ladder.
They're great when doing their jobs. First rate guys and very professional,
but outside of the job, they get a tad lax.

Air Force: Highly trained, the best of everything when it comes to
equipment, undisciplined and the biggest bunch of whiners I've ever met in
my life.

Army: They are getting soft. At least in their basic training. It's a
good thing they've got big numbers and the best equipment on the planet
otherwise a whole shit-load of them would be buying the farm until they got
enough time in the field to harden up.


Ok Jeff, go ahead, start ripping.



"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:nf2dnV-GL4UsyrfeRVn-1g@comcast.com...
> "John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:YgsWe.85435$xl6.65796@tornado.tampabay.rr.com ...
> > So, when was the youth up to your expectations? 1960's ? 1950's?
> >
> > I'm sorry you're pissed that it's hard to find good help. Maybe a
> different
> > attitude or higher wages would help.
> >
> > There's a lot of great youth around. Many of them are in Iraq.
>
> Dude. No. Don't even fuckin go there.
>

Tom you hit the nail on the head !
have good weekend.......
"Tom Greening" <tgreen@yohmama.com> wrote in message
news:%RzWe.11219$ib1.9852@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com.. .
> The kid was trying to play me for a fool, and I knew better. 50's?
> Probably so. They had a lot more respect for authority then, since people
> actually still HAD authority. 60's? I don't know about that. You're
> starting to get into that whole counter-culture hippy thing. Thank god
they
> all sold out and became corporate sharks by the 80's.
>
> MY attitude has nothing to do with it. All I expect when someone walks in
> the door is for them to present themselves in a professional manner.
Pant's
> down around your ankles is not it.
>
> Wages has nothing to do with it. If a person's underlying character is
not
> there, all a high wage does is make him happy for the first week until he
> starts deciding that I "don't pay him ENOUGH to do this/that".
>
>
> "John J." <detectorist@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:YgsWe.85435$xl6.65796@tornado.tampabay.rr.com ...
> > I have no idea what you mean by being 'stroked'. I just posted an honest
> > question and an opinion to what I perceived to be an honest post and
> opinion
> > on your part.
> >
> > So, when was the youth up to your expectations? 1960's ? 1950's?
> >
> > I'm sorry you're pissed that it's hard to find good help. Maybe a
> different
> > attitude or higher wages would help.
> >
> > There's a lot of great youth around. Many of them are in Iraq.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>