<richard@askme.com> wrote in message
news:7gkg01p2mpe67monkah1rop47gh6arqlqf@4ax.com...
> Some basics:
> Population size - 50,000 local with 300,000+ within 1.5 hour radius

Forget about it. The population is not nearly enough to support a viable
indoor field, given the extra expenses that typically come with an indoor
field.

> Local Competition - Yes, outdoor and very poorly run (I mean really
> bad, call the EPA garbage everywhere bad)

The thing about the competition is that they will have very little overhead,
no matter HOW poorly they are run. You may get a few customers who switch
out of desire for service, but the bottom line is that people pay attention
to price a lot more carefully than they do to service, for the most part.
And running an indoor field is necessarily more expensive, simply out of the
type of property required.

> Outdoor plans: Well see if the competition cleans up, if not then
> maybe....

Outdoor is much cheaper, FYI. Your fixed costs are much lower.

> Start-up funding: $25,000+ initial with more if needed.

Forget about it. Rent on a typical place will kill that budget in a
heartbeat, forgetting that you have to float your variable costs for a
period of time before you get money back. Your budget is WOEFULLY short for
the plan. I suggest putting some numbers to a plan before continuing.
Simply add up a years worth of paint costs, rent, taxes, insurance and so
on, and you'll find that this number doesn't even come close.

> Typical spaces available: 3,000 ~ 4,000 sq/ft can find larger if
> needed

Way too small. You'd need at LEAST 6000 square feet, but more like 10,000.
In a 4000 square foot facility, ignoring that you need a staging area and
office space, the max size would be 40x100, barely large enough for the
smallest of speedball fields.

> Questions:
>
> 1. What types of game play?

All types, prefer recreational play.

> 2. Preferred markers for rentals (durability and quality in mind,
> add-ons et-al)

As a business owner, your secondary concern should be customer preference.
Remember that anyone renting is not likely to have an opinion on the matter.
What you should be concerned about is durability, first and foremost. What
gun will put up with constant abuse by it's users? The choice then becomes
clear: Anything by Tippmann.

> 3. Preferred masks goggles for rentals?

Anything that is thermal. If you give them lenses that fog, they will NEVER
return. There are a variety of choices in the thermal lens market, any of
which would be fine.

> 4. Chest protection usage? (some do, some don't)

Have it as an option, but honestly, so few people worry about it that I
wouldn't worry too much if you don't have any.

> 5. Best brand(s) for house paint?

Depends on the deal you can get. Everyone has their preference, of course,
but the bottom line is how much can you get for how much money(ie price per
ball). If you can get something quite cheaply, it may override concerns
about quality. Then again, it may not. Personally, I like PMI paints, but
that's just me.

> 6. Preferred wholesaler(s)? Who to avoid?

Can't say.

> 7. Ancillary equipment needs?

You'll need parts for all your rentals, as well as normally required parts
of other guns(orings and springs). You'll need backups in case your air
supply runs dry. You'll need a variety of cleaning equipment. Basically,
there's going to be a bunch of stuff that pops up. Keep lots of petty cash
around(or at least available on short notice, since having it there might be
an invitation to steal).

> 8. Locker room needs?

The larger your field, the larger your staging area needs. Probably on a 10
to 1 ratio, maybe a little higher. If you have a 4K sq ft field, you're
probably going to need 400 square feet of staging area space, since if you
have a larger and filled staging area, all those players are NOT going to
fit on the field at once.

> 9. What type of obstacle system to use, SUP'AIRBALLT or similar? Owner
> fabricated?

Owner fabricated is cheaper and easier, but sup'air seems to be becoming the
standard.

> 10. What makes a good flooring?

There are a variety of options. I would recommend a floor similar to the
shower floor of the local gym, that sandy-concrete style of finish that is
VERY grippy, even when wet. Do NOT use bare concrete. Do NOT use sand or
mulch. Astroturf is another popular option, but I can easily envision that
becoming over-soaked with paint, rendering it useless.

> 11 What can we expect in the way of clean ups?

Well, it's up to you, but if you don't want it to stink, you'll clean up
every week or so.

> 12. Where's the Bling Bling? (Read, what do we avoid?)

I don't know what you should specifically avoid, but I'll tell you where you
should focus your efforts: Newbies. They are by far your longest green.
If you actively seek new players to play at your field over any other field,
you will do well.

> Our number one motivation for opening up an indoor is for our own
> piece of mind, find something you love and do it. We have all (my
> partners and I), had enough of working for liars, cheats, and thieves
> and want to do something we can feel good about when all is said and
> done. Please do not view this as a spam attack or troll, I'm not going
> to mention any names or locations. I'm only interested in what the
> long time player and fans of paintball would ask for if they could
> "have it all" in an indoor arena.

It's great to pursue this avenue, but I believe it will be fruitless in the
end. Your budget is too small, your market is too small, your locations are
too small. Everything important about it is "too small". You have several
options, enlist investors being the most obvious of them. Of course the
investors are going to bring up exactly what I have brought up, that your
market is tiny by comparison to what is needed to support a field, and your
locations are not large enough to house a field worth playing at.

Instead, a more viable option is to set up a competing outdoor field, and
advertise the shit out of it. Drown out the competition through
advertising, and then follow it up with service. Of most importance to all
players is the quality of referees. If the refs exist simply to start and
finish games, your service is no better than anyone else provides. Despite
what they may say at the time of a call, most players view consistently good
reffing as the hallmark of a good field, since, more often than not, a good
player will submit that a call was good, even if it was against them. Of
next most importance to players is their treatment by the staff in general.
Games should be started in a timely manner, problems should be taken care of
promptly, customers should be treated with courtesy and respect. All too
often, games are almost an afterthought, problems linger, and non-regular
customers are treated as a nuisance.

So, instead of a grandiose and expensive plan to open an indoor field that
is doomed to failure, open an outdoor field that is DEFINITELY going to
succeed.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

Perfect! Thank you for the link. we've been looking for info from an
owners view however with so many websites it's hard to find amoung all
of the stuff for players.

Cheers

On 8 Feb 2005 12:41:50 -0800, "zariok" <zariok@gmail.com> wrote:

>Check out:
>
>http://www.paintcheck.com/fieldowner/
>
>Make sure you dig into the forums a bit, there's quite a bit of
>information there.
>
>-----------------------
>John Draughn
>Captain, Team Watchmen
>http://teamwatchmen.org/

Thank you Jeff for your reply, sorry for the delay in my response.

I should have added some more details on a few points however I was
concerned about length in my original post.

1. Start-up funding: $25,000+ initial with more if needed. <--The
amount allocated for markers, equipment, and initial stock. No
renovations or operating capital involved in any way.

2. Typical spaces available: 3,000 ~ 4,000 sq/ft can find larger if
needed <-- Size of actual playing area available within said buildings
less pro shop, staging & viewing, and other services.

Our original motivation for an indoor arena was due to the local
weather; summers are long and beautiful however winter is rainy and
cold. Year round would net an additional 3 to 4 months revenue but now
with your estimate of recurring players in our radius we have shifted
our location planning to an outdoor focus.

We have excellent access to woodlots via local forestry whereby they
grant lease in non operational areas to private ventures. Or possibly
acreage rentals with receptive or even absent neighbors. Given that
the original inspiration for this venture was mil sim based (read, 3
guys bored wanting to pelt one another paint) I think we should
revisit that idea, and run seasonally.

Residential/commercial properties are common place here so this would
be a low to no impact operation in comparison to a sawmill or heavy
machinery yard; ergo no zoning issues.

Considering our location we may very well extend to overnight options
with limited camping, such as 24hr scenario play. We would be more
then happy to build a large outdoor bunker and trail style park for
mil sim and scenario games.

Short of asking other field operators if they would be open to cross
promotional style playoffs and leagues I think this is a viable path.

Input?

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:01:22 -0500, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
wrote:

><richard@askme.com> wrote in message
>news:7gkg01p2mpe67monkah1rop47gh6arqlqf@4ax.com.. .
>> Some basics:
>> Population size - 50,000 local with 300,000+ within 1.5 hour radius
>
>Forget about it. The population is not nearly enough to support a viable
>indoor field, given the extra expenses that typically come with an indoor
>field.
>
>> Local Competition - Yes, outdoor and very poorly run (I mean really
>> bad, call the EPA garbage everywhere bad)
>
>The thing about the competition is that they will have very little overhead,
>no matter HOW poorly they are run. You may get a few customers who switch
>out of desire for service, but the bottom line is that people pay attention
>to price a lot more carefully than they do to service, for the most part.
>And running an indoor field is necessarily more expensive, simply out of the
>type of property required.
>
>> Outdoor plans: Well see if the competition cleans up, if not then
>> maybe....
>
>Outdoor is much cheaper, FYI. Your fixed costs are much lower.
>
>> Start-up funding: $25,000+ initial with more if needed.
>
>Forget about it. Rent on a typical place will kill that budget in a
>heartbeat, forgetting that you have to float your variable costs for a
>period of time before you get money back. Your budget is WOEFULLY short for
>the plan. I suggest putting some numbers to a plan before continuing.
>Simply add up a years worth of paint costs, rent, taxes, insurance and so
>on, and you'll find that this number doesn't even come close.
>
>> Typical spaces available: 3,000 ~ 4,000 sq/ft can find larger if
>> needed
>
>Way too small. You'd need at LEAST 6000 square feet, but more like 10,000.
>In a 4000 square foot facility, ignoring that you need a staging area and
>office space, the max size would be 40x100, barely large enough for the
>smallest of speedball fields.
>
>> Questions:
>>
>> 1. What types of game play?
>
>All types, prefer recreational play.
>
>> 2. Preferred markers for rentals (durability and quality in mind,
>> add-ons et-al)
>
>As a business owner, your secondary concern should be customer preference.
>Remember that anyone renting is not likely to have an opinion on the matter.
>What you should be concerned about is durability, first and foremost. What
>gun will put up with constant abuse by it's users? The choice then becomes
>clear: Anything by Tippmann.
>
>> 3. Preferred masks goggles for rentals?
>
>Anything that is thermal. If you give them lenses that fog, they will NEVER
>return. There are a variety of choices in the thermal lens market, any of
>which would be fine.
>
>> 4. Chest protection usage? (some do, some don't)
>
>Have it as an option, but honestly, so few people worry about it that I
>wouldn't worry too much if you don't have any.
>
>> 5. Best brand(s) for house paint?
>
>Depends on the deal you can get. Everyone has their preference, of course,
>but the bottom line is how much can you get for how much money(ie price per
>ball). If you can get something quite cheaply, it may override concerns
>about quality. Then again, it may not. Personally, I like PMI paints, but
>that's just me.
>
>> 6. Preferred wholesaler(s)? Who to avoid?
>
>Can't say.
>
>> 7. Ancillary equipment needs?
>
>You'll need parts for all your rentals, as well as normally required parts
>of other guns(orings and springs). You'll need backups in case your air
>supply runs dry. You'll need a variety of cleaning equipment. Basically,
>there's going to be a bunch of stuff that pops up. Keep lots of petty cash
>around(or at least available on short notice, since having it there might be
>an invitation to steal).
>
>> 8. Locker room needs?
>
>The larger your field, the larger your staging area needs. Probably on a 10
>to 1 ratio, maybe a little higher. If you have a 4K sq ft field, you're
>probably going to need 400 square feet of staging area space, since if you
>have a larger and filled staging area, all those players are NOT going to
>fit on the field at once.
>
>> 9. What type of obstacle system to use, SUP'AIRBALLT or similar? Owner
>> fabricated?
>
>Owner fabricated is cheaper and easier, but sup'air seems to be becoming the
>standard.
>
>> 10. What makes a good flooring?
>
>There are a variety of options. I would recommend a floor similar to the
>shower floor of the local gym, that sandy-concrete style of finish that is
>VERY grippy, even when wet. Do NOT use bare concrete. Do NOT use sand or
>mulch. Astroturf is another popular option, but I can easily envision that
>becoming over-soaked with paint, rendering it useless.
>
>> 11 What can we expect in the way of clean ups?
>
>Well, it's up to you, but if you don't want it to stink, you'll clean up
>every week or so.
>
>> 12. Where's the Bling Bling? (Read, what do we avoid?)
>
>I don't know what you should specifically avoid, but I'll tell you where you
>should focus your efforts: Newbies. They are by far your longest green.
>If you actively seek new players to play at your field over any other field,
>you will do well.
>
>> Our number one motivation for opening up an indoor is for our own
>> piece of mind, find something you love and do it. We have all (my
>> partners and I), had enough of working for liars, cheats, and thieves
>> and want to do something we can feel good about when all is said and
>> done. Please do not view this as a spam attack or troll, I'm not going
>> to mention any names or locations. I'm only interested in what the
>> long time player and fans of paintball would ask for if they could
>> "have it all" in an indoor arena.
>
>It's great to pursue this avenue, but I believe it will be fruitless in the
>end. Your budget is too small, your market is too small, your locations are
>too small. Everything important about it is "too small". You have several
>options, enlist investors being the most obvious of them. Of course the
>investors are going to bring up exactly what I have brought up, that your
>market is tiny by comparison to what is needed to support a field, and your
>locations are not large enough to house a field worth playing at.
>
>Instead, a more viable option is to set up a competing outdoor field, and
>advertise the shit out of it. Drown out the competition through
>advertising, and then follow it up with service. Of most importance to all
>players is the quality of referees. If the refs exist simply to start and
>finish games, your service is no better than anyone else provides. Despite
>what they may say at the time of a call, most players view consistently good
>reffing as the hallmark of a good field, since, more often than not, a good
>player will submit that a call was good, even if it was against them. Of
>next most importance to players is their treatment by the staff in general.
>Games should be started in a timely manner, problems should be taken care of
>promptly, customers should be treated with courtesy and respect. All too
>often, games are almost an afterthought, problems linger, and non-regular
>customers are treated as a nuisance.
>
>So, instead of a grandiose and expensive plan to open an indoor field that
>is doomed to failure, open an outdoor field that is DEFINITELY going to
>succeed.

<richard@askme.com> wrote in message
newsjtp01leg4ssg909mph5quc5ndte9ppe97@4ax.com...
> 1. Start-up funding: $25,000+ initial with more if needed. <--The
> amount allocated for markers, equipment, and initial stock. No
> renovations or operating capital involved in any way.

Well, let's see. A modest number of rentals equipment, to make it even
remotely worthwhile, is 50 complete sets. Now, retail prices on equipment
are admittedly higher than what you could get for a wholesale price, but
nonetheless, they are a good indication. A full set of gear would include a
marker, hopper, mask, tank, barrel plug. A conservative estimate for that
package would be around $200 a set, making your initial investment in gear
$10K, and that's if you buy only a small number of rental sets. Bear in
mind that your venture's success will be based on the number of rentals you
have, because you can only sell paint to people who are equipped(if you run
out of rentals, you can't continue to rent them to have paint run through
them).

The big problem you're going to run into, however, is not equipment, it's
going to be floating the cost of paint. Any decent size field runs through
a LOT of paint, and you can't run out, which means that you have to buy more
paint BEFORE you've appreciated the profit from your first outlay. While
you are selling the first lot, you need to have another order in for a
second lot of paint. Now, I don't know how much paint a field will go
through, but let's say that 200 cases lasts you a month, and you buy 100
cases at a shot. That means that you need to order the next 100 cases by
the time the first 100 cases arrives, meaning that you need to have enough
money to float 200 cases of paint before seeing a single drop of profit.
Paint usually wholesales at around $40 a case, depending on brand, so that
is $8K tied up in paint.

I won't speak to air, because honestly, in the grand scheme of things, it's
not terribly expensive. Rent some bulk tanks(maybe 15-20?) and get the
filled and delivered, probably would not cost terribly much in the grand
scheme. I believe tank rental for a bulk tank costs like $50 a year, and
filling is pretty cheap. In comparison to some of your other expenses, it
is the least expensive thing to worry about.

What you need to remember is that your field is going to be a victim of it's
own success if you're not careful. If you don't have enough rentals, you
will have to turn customers away who want to rent. If you run out of paint
or air, you can kiss your business good bye for anyone there the day you run
out. So, typically, you would have some reserve equipment and paint in
stock. Basically, between some more gear, some parts to back them up, and
some extra air and paint, $25K will be gone, and that's just for a modest
field's worth of gear and stock.

Of critical importance to the business will be ensuring that you *NEVER* run
out of paint or air. *EVER*. *NEVER* *EVER* _*EVER*_ do you want to find
yourself out of either. If you run out of air or paint for some reason, the
players will not give a rats ass WHY you ran out, just *THAT* you ran out,
and it will likely be more than enough to convince them to rely on
themselves and never return to your field. For that reason, the vast
proportion of your annual budget should be dedicated to those resources.

> 2. Typical spaces available: 3,000 ~ 4,000 sq/ft can find larger if
> needed <-- Size of actual playing area available within said buildings
> less pro shop, staging & viewing, and other services.

Think about it. 40x100 is about 1/3 the size of a football field. I can't
even *IMAGINE* playing on a field so small. Remember that the guns have a
range that will allow them to reach 200 feet and beyond(not effectively, of
course, but still, a player can launch a paintball that distance).

The other limiting factor, along with the number of rental sets you have, is
the amount of players that you can realistically fit into your staging area
and onto your field. If you set up in a small location, you are effectively
limiting the number of players regardless of the amount of gear you have to
rent.

The field I (used to) play at regularly was 32000 square feet(if memory
serves). It could "comfortably" play 40 people. You could squeeze about 70
into the staging area, but then the field was basically overrun by players.
I would leave if there were more than 50 players for the day, because,
simply put, the field was too crowded. Now, bear in mind that you're going
to have a field that is literally 1/8th the size, and now scale the numbers
of participants. It won't be a linear comparison, but still, fitting more
than about a dozen people on the field will be "challenging", and fitting
20-30 people will be next to impossible to realistically accomplish.

I would recommend an area of NO LESS than the standard size for an NPPL
regulation field. Fields of this size will "competitively" allow for 20
people on them, but during a recreational game, you can easily squeeze 50+
people onto the field without it seeming too terribly crowded. The standard
size for an NPPL field is 120 x 200, or a minimum size of 24000 square feet.
That size, of course, excludes office/shop space, staging areas and viewing
areas.

> Our original motivation for an indoor arena was due to the local
> weather; summers are long and beautiful however winter is rainy and
> cold. Year round would net an additional 3 to 4 months revenue but now
> with your estimate of recurring players in our radius we have shifted
> our location planning to an outdoor focus.

I understand the desire to have an indoor arena. However, since the outdoor
places can run so cheaply during the summertime, running an indoor field
tends to be a labor of love, rather than an actual viable business for most
operators.

I think that it is wise to pursue the outdoor field idea rather than the
indoor field. The chances of business viability are much higher in an area
where you are not smothered by land costs. Rent on "underdeveloped" or
completely "undeveloped" land tends to be nominal, meaning that you can
focus your budget mainly where it will count the most: the business proper,
rather than the facilities of the business.

> Residential/commercial properties are common place here so this would
> be a low to no impact operation in comparison to a sawmill or heavy
> machinery yard; ergo no zoning issues.

I wouldn't make that assumption. I have heard *MANY* stories, on this
newsgroup alone, of zoning boards throwing a monkey in the wrench when it
comes to zoning and granting applications. Operating from a position of
ignorance, they tend to make assumptions about paintball and the kind of
folks who play it, and deny such zoning deviations on general principle.
Before you get heavily invested in this, even emotionally invested, I would
make *DAMN* sure you KNOW you have a place to play. Nothing will kill a
paintball field faster than a bunch of old school pencil pushing
bureaucrats. Once you're past getting zoning permission and so on, THEN
move on to the bigger things.

Basically, it would be *SILLY* to assume that zoning will not be an issue,
given the nature of the business you want to run. Paintball is a
misunderstood business venture, in general, to the vast majority of the
public, including zoning boards. Lining up money, equipment and field
structure are all EASY in comparison to the task you might have ahead of you
if you have some stick in the mud councilmember who simply doesn't want to
have paintball in his town. Money's the easy part. Convincing the old fart
on the board to allow it, that's the tricky part.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

All great responses, thank you Jeff.

All areas that you mentioned are areas that we have identified as
potential pit falls. The following is based on a revised (beaten' to
within an inch of it's life over the last 3 days...), business model
of no less then 5 to 10 acres of wooded/semi wooded rural land. Either
within the limits of a municipality (read: subject to zoning issues);
or bordering on said municipality, outside of direct control (zoning),
on leased land.

In the event of the latter much larger leases are available;
including but not limited to a ski lodge with 2 chair lifts, fully
constructed 30 site camping facilities with parking and access for 500
+ automobiles. The government held lease expired on the last
developers and they could not make a go of it due to the proximity of
a larger better ski hill on a better mountain. Turn key for a group
looking for partial or full lease, 20 minutes from the city centre.

Outdoor size limits are covered zoning is a possible concern however
I'm confidant. Cocksurity is not an exclusive, nice signature btw...
;-)


Re: Markers & rentals

Budget calls for 2 packages of 20 markers each containing the
following @ an estimated $208 ~ $220 CND per marker:

Tippmann 98 Custom
Pure energy 12 oz pin valve tank
JT Rader non-thermal
200 rd hopper
Barrel condom
Armbands

Field items in package
Barrel squeegee x 51
Digital Scale x 1
CO2 fill station x 1
Speed Trap x 1
Case Paintballs x 2
JT Rader Yellow Thermal x 2

Our planed upgrades to the above:
Expansion chamber kits
Pure energy 20 oz on/off valve tank
Thermal visor upgrade for JT Rader
or JT Elite Headshield swap out
Hopper upgrades
Barrel upgrades

Each marker to be upgraded at the time of purchase or shortly there
after. Ive had crappy rentals, we have no intentions of being cheap
here.

Plus lots of other gear... lots, trust us...

Paint and supply chain...

I will not go into backgrounds here but this is a brief overview of
the skill sets involved in our little triad of would be field owners.

An R&D developer responsible for the founding of a Franchise 500
company with well over 200 current open locations.
Franchisor training program innovator and developer for above said
company.
Communications officer and technology advisor in ecommerce and
intranet/extranet support, and marketing think tank chair.

Also 2 of us have double duty in one, on site field support and
location roll out with grand opening promotions and events management
rolls; second, supply chain logistics for location build out,
contracting, sub-contracting, zoning, leases holds and improvements
including inventory(500+ items).

I think it's covered, logistics, marketing, and supply chair, we have
the skills for paintball; in ecense our experience is in teaching
other people to run a small business.

Air/CO2/nitrogen is a non issue as well as a local friend and business
owner is in the welding and gas supply game.

>What you need to remember is that your field is going to be a victim of it's
>own success if you're not careful. If you don't have enough rentals, you
>will have to turn customers away who want to rent. If you run out of paint
>or air, you can kiss your business good bye for anyone there the day you run
>out.

True story, I swear I S**T you not!

Sunday just past 2 of the 3 of us are out scouting around, see the
competition and walk over to investigate, and ask questions. The
operation is a small area and the game was run from the back of a
pick-up truck on site. In the 5 minutes we were their the one and
only, and oddly enough unoccupied staff member was vague and blasai
about questions. Also we had arrived just in time, approximatly 2:00
PM; to see him inform everyone present that they have no air/co2 left.

Hard not to feel good about the other guys in a case like this.

Customer Service is #1 in any business, this is a mantra for us.


On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:10:24 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> wrote:

><richard@askme.com> wrote in message
>newsjtp01leg4ssg909mph5quc5ndte9ppe97@4ax.com.. .
>> 1. Start-up funding: $25,000+ initial with more if needed. <--The
>> amount allocated for markers, equipment, and initial stock. No
>> renovations or operating capital involved in any way.
>
>Well, let's see. A modest number of rentals equipment, to make it even
>remotely worthwhile, is 50 complete sets. Now, retail prices on equipment
>are admittedly higher than what you could get for a wholesale price, but
>nonetheless, they are a good indication. A full set of gear would include a
>marker, hopper, mask, tank, barrel plug. A conservative estimate for that
>package would be around $200 a set, making your initial investment in gear
>$10K, and that's if you buy only a small number of rental sets. Bear in
>mind that your venture's success will be based on the number of rentals you
>have, because you can only sell paint to people who are equipped(if you run
>out of rentals, you can't continue to rent them to have paint run through
>them).
>
>The big problem you're going to run into, however, is not equipment, it's
>going to be floating the cost of paint. Any decent size field runs through
>a LOT of paint, and you can't run out, which means that you have to buy more
>paint BEFORE you've appreciated the profit from your first outlay. While
>you are selling the first lot, you need to have another order in for a
>second lot of paint. Now, I don't know how much paint a field will go
>through, but let's say that 200 cases lasts you a month, and you buy 100
>cases at a shot. That means that you need to order the next 100 cases by
>the time the first 100 cases arrives, meaning that you need to have enough
>money to float 200 cases of paint before seeing a single drop of profit.
>Paint usually wholesales at around $40 a case, depending on brand, so that
>is $8K tied up in paint.
>
>I won't speak to air, because honestly, in the grand scheme of things, it's
>not terribly expensive. Rent some bulk tanks(maybe 15-20?) and get the
>filled and delivered, probably would not cost terribly much in the grand
>scheme. I believe tank rental for a bulk tank costs like $50 a year, and
>filling is pretty cheap. In comparison to some of your other expenses, it
>is the least expensive thing to worry about.
>
>What you need to remember is that your field is going to be a victim of it's
>own success if you're not careful. If you don't have enough rentals, you
>will have to turn customers away who want to rent. If you run out of paint
>or air, you can kiss your business good bye for anyone there the day you run
>out. So, typically, you would have some reserve equipment and paint in
>stock. Basically, between some more gear, some parts to back them up, and
>some extra air and paint, $25K will be gone, and that's just for a modest
>field's worth of gear and stock.
>
>Of critical importance to the business will be ensuring that you *NEVER* run
>out of paint or air. *EVER*. *NEVER* *EVER* _*EVER*_ do you want to find
>yourself out of either. If you run out of air or paint for some reason, the
>players will not give a rats ass WHY you ran out, just *THAT* you ran out,
>and it will likely be more than enough to convince them to rely on
>themselves and never return to your field. For that reason, the vast
>proportion of your annual budget should be dedicated to those resources.
>
>> 2. Typical spaces available: 3,000 ~ 4,000 sq/ft can find larger if
>> needed <-- Size of actual playing area available within said buildings
>> less pro shop, staging & viewing, and other services.
>
>Think about it. 40x100 is about 1/3 the size of a football field. I can't
>even *IMAGINE* playing on a field so small. Remember that the guns have a
>range that will allow them to reach 200 feet and beyond(not effectively, of
>course, but still, a player can launch a paintball that distance).
>
>The other limiting factor, along with the number of rental sets you have, is
>the amount of players that you can realistically fit into your staging area
>and onto your field. If you set up in a small location, you are effectively
>limiting the number of players regardless of the amount of gear you have to
>rent.
>
>The field I (used to) play at regularly was 32000 square feet(if memory
>serves). It could "comfortably" play 40 people. You could squeeze about 70
>into the staging area, but then the field was basically overrun by players.
>I would leave if there were more than 50 players for the day, because,
>simply put, the field was too crowded. Now, bear in mind that you're going
>to have a field that is literally 1/8th the size, and now scale the numbers
>of participants. It won't be a linear comparison, but still, fitting more
>than about a dozen people on the field will be "challenging", and fitting
>20-30 people will be next to impossible to realistically accomplish.
>
>I would recommend an area of NO LESS than the standard size for an NPPL
>regulation field. Fields of this size will "competitively" allow for 20
>people on them, but during a recreational game, you can easily squeeze 50+
>people onto the field without it seeming too terribly crowded. The standard
>size for an NPPL field is 120 x 200, or a minimum size of 24000 square feet.
>That size, of course, excludes office/shop space, staging areas and viewing
>areas.
>
>> Our original motivation for an indoor arena was due to the local
>> weather; summers are long and beautiful however winter is rainy and
>> cold. Year round would net an additional 3 to 4 months revenue but now
>> with your estimate of recurring players in our radius we have shifted
>> our location planning to an outdoor focus.
>
>I understand the desire to have an indoor arena. However, since the outdoor
>places can run so cheaply during the summertime, running an indoor field
>tends to be a labor of love, rather than an actual viable business for most
>operators.
>
>I think that it is wise to pursue the outdoor field idea rather than the
>indoor field. The chances of business viability are much higher in an area
>where you are not smothered by land costs. Rent on "underdeveloped" or
>completely "undeveloped" land tends to be nominal, meaning that you can
>focus your budget mainly where it will count the most: the business proper,
>rather than the facilities of the business.
>
>> Residential/commercial properties are common place here so this would
>> be a low to no impact operation in comparison to a sawmill or heavy
>> machinery yard; ergo no zoning issues.
>
>I wouldn't make that assumption. I have heard *MANY* stories, on this
>newsgroup alone, of zoning boards throwing a monkey in the wrench when it
>comes to zoning and granting applications. Operating from a position of
>ignorance, they tend to make assumptions about paintball and the kind of
>folks who play it, and deny such zoning deviations on general principle.
>Before you get heavily invested in this, even emotionally invested, I would
>make *DAMN* sure you KNOW you have a place to play. Nothing will kill a
>paintball field faster than a bunch of old school pencil pushing
>bureaucrats. Once you're past getting zoning permission and so on, THEN
>move on to the bigger things.
>
>Basically, it would be *SILLY* to assume that zoning will not be an issue,
>given the nature of the business you want to run. Paintball is a
>misunderstood business venture, in general, to the vast majority of the
>public, including zoning boards. Lining up money, equipment and field
>structure are all EASY in comparison to the task you might have ahead of you
>if you have some stick in the mud councilmember who simply doesn't want to
>have paintball in his town. Money's the easy part. Convincing the old fart
>on the board to allow it, that's the tricky part.

<richard@askme.com> wrote in message
news:07iq01tdh9uprveghkkmnt5u31leo5k8ih@4ax.com...
> All areas that you mentioned are areas that we have identified as
> potential pit falls. The following is based on a revised (beaten' to
> within an inch of it's life over the last 3 days...), business model
> of no less then 5 to 10 acres of wooded/semi wooded rural land. Either
> within the limits of a municipality (read: subject to zoning issues);
> or bordering on said municipality, outside of direct control (zoning),
> on leased land.

Bear in mind that the further you are from "civilization", the harder it
will be to get customers. It's great that the land is cheap out in the
boonies, but still, if nobody patronizes your field, well, there ain't gonna
be much profit to go around, ya know?

I assume you have budgetted a rather substantial amount of your initial
capital for marketing? Make sure you do your market research before
spending your money. It won't do you a bit of good to advertise in the
local paper, simple knowledge of your target market shows that your
demographic barely opens the paper, let alone actually reads it. People say
that anyone *can* play paintball, but the simple reality is that your
largest and most dependable demographic is 15-25 year old males. They have
a gob of money, and usually not a whole lot of responsibilities, so that
means oodles of spare cash. Market to them specifically, with whatever
marketing you choose to employ. But for the love of all that is holy, DON'T
IGNORE THE ADVERTISING!!! Many fields open, give a few bits of advertising
and then ride their regulars for all they are worth. If you want to remain
successful, you should annually budget for your advertising, and don't be
afraid to spend money on it.

> In the event of the latter much larger leases are available;
> including but not limited to a ski lodge with 2 chair lifts, fully
> constructed 30 site camping facilities with parking and access for 500
> + automobiles. The government held lease expired on the last

That'd be pretty expensive, wouldn't it? I'd look for land that was
developed enough to have running water and electricity on site, maybe a
shack or two, and leave the rest up to the tenants. It's *MUCH* cheaper
that way. Just a thought.

> Outdoor size limits are covered zoning is a possible concern however
> I'm confidant. Cocksurity is not an exclusive, nice signature btw...
> ;-)

Yeah, I like it. It's true, too!

> Re: Markers & rentals
>
> Budget calls for 2 packages of 20 markers each containing the
> following @ an estimated $208 ~ $220 CND per marker:
>
> Tippmann 98 Custom
> Pure energy 12 oz pin valve tank
> JT Rader non-thermal
> 200 rd hopper
> Barrel condom
> Armbands
>
> Field items in package
> Barrel squeegee x 51
> Digital Scale x 1
> CO2 fill station x 1
> Speed Trap x 1
> Case Paintballs x 2
> JT Rader Yellow Thermal x 2
>
> Our planed upgrades to the above:
> Expansion chamber kits
> Pure energy 20 oz on/off valve tank
> Thermal visor upgrade for JT Rader
> or JT Elite Headshield swap out
> Hopper upgrades
> Barrel upgrades

Slow down, there, high roller. Instead of getting stuff you can't use and
then buying more stuff to replace it, just get the stuff you need up front!
Remember, if you're a field, and you're buying 10-15K worth of stuff,
they'll MAKE a package for you. DEFINITELY look around before you buy, and
talk to the BIG companies directly. Most "packages" are put together by
middlemen looking to score on the resell, but if you're buying big, go to
the source. Not only will you save money, you'll also get EXACTLY what you
need.

I would go with the following for rentals:
Tippmann 98
20 oz pin valve tank
Thermal lens JT or Scott masks
Standard Hopper
Standard Barrel
Barrel Plug/Condom

For the field:
a few squeegies(I believe cable squeegies come with every 98, so you may not
need ANY squeegies)
a few chronos(the red ones)
a digital scale
a CO2 fill station
ARMBAND TAPE

Specifically I say armband tape because if you use actual cloth armbands, it
ain't gonna be long before they are either stolen, accidentally walked off
with, or too soiled to use. Since you're gonna lose em anyways, buy some
bright tape from a supply store of some sort as cheap as possible and just
write it off instead.

> Each marker to be upgraded at the time of purchase or shortly there
> after. Ive had crappy rentals, we have no intentions of being cheap
> here.

I think that's a mistake. The people who use rentals are inexperienced at
the game. Quite simply, they wouldn't know the difference or realize any
advantages from upgraded rental gear. Expansion chambers are a mistake,
on/off valves are a mistake(newbies will turn them off, more hassle for you
and them), hopper upgrades are a BIG mistake(they CHEW thru batteries
$$$$!!!! and they are going to be used by people who won't give a shit about
them, so they will break), barrel upgrades are a mistake(newbies can't hit
squat no matter WHAT gun you give em, so why upgrade the barrel?). I would
upgrade the size of the tank, but that's pretty much it.

Bottom line, chief, rentals are for people who don't have their own gear.
If they don't have their own gear, they simply WILL NOT be able to discern
your rental gear from anything else, because they won't have played very
often before. Dumping money into rentals is a waste of money. Make sure
they work, yes, make sure they stay working, yes, but beyond that, any money
spent on them for upgrades is a total waste of money.

> I will not go into backgrounds here but this is a brief overview of
> the skill sets involved in our little triad of would be field owners.
>
> An R&D developer responsible for the founding of a Franchise 500
> company with well over 200 current open locations.
> Franchisor training program innovator and developer for above said
> company.
> Communications officer and technology advisor in ecommerce and
> intranet/extranet support, and marketing think tank chair.

For what it's worth, I'm a small business owner myself(not paintball), and
own two businesses. I'd be happy to look over your business
plan(confidentially, of course) to assist you in finding "areas to
concentrate on".

> Also 2 of us have double duty in one, on site field support and
> location roll out with grand opening promotions and events management
> rolls; second, supply chain logistics for location build out,
> contracting, sub-contracting, zoning, leases holds and improvements
> including inventory(500+ items).
>
> I think it's covered, logistics, marketing, and supply chair, we have
> the skills for paintball; in ecense our experience is in teaching
> other people to run a small business.

Let me put it to you this way. If you run the business of a field from the
perspective of a player who loves the game, your venture will *FAIL* to meet
the goal you achieve. It may operate, but it will be just as crappy as the
next guy's field. The difference between the field I normally play at and
the other fields in the area is simple. The guy who ran it played precisely
ONE game of paintball in his entire life. He was a BUSINESSMAN, pure and
simple. Customer service was paramount, professionalism the mantra. The
player-run fields of the area, on the other hand, are lackluster, sloppy,
and most of the time, the people behind the counter couldn't give a shit
about what they do.

If you want this to succeed, be businessmen first, players last.

> Air/CO2/nitrogen is a non issue as well as a local friend and business
> owner is in the welding and gas supply game.

Always a plus. Keep him happy, he will have your business in his hands,
essentially.

> Customer Service is #1 in any business, this is a mantra for us.

Some people start off that way and slide. Don't slide, and you'll be MILES
ahead of everyone else.

Also, make SURE your refs act with professionalism and courtesy, and that
they know they have authority. DON'T hire 12 year olds just because they
want to do it! And make sure games run on a SCHEDULE!!! Nothing pisses
players off more than waiting around for half an hour to start a game just
because the refs are lazy bums.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 05:34:09 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> wrote:

><richard@askme.com> wrote in message
>news:07iq01tdh9uprveghkkmnt5u31leo5k8ih@4ax.com.. .
>> All areas that you mentioned are areas that we have identified as
>> potential pit falls. The following is based on a revised (beaten' to
>> within an inch of it's life over the last 3 days...), business model
>> of no less then 5 to 10 acres of wooded/semi wooded rural land. Either
>> within the limits of a municipality (read: subject to zoning issues);
>> or bordering on said municipality, outside of direct control (zoning),
>> on leased land.
>
>Bear in mind that the further you are from "civilization", the harder it
>will be to get customers. It's great that the land is cheap out in the
>boonies, but still, if nobody patronizes your field, well, there ain't gonna
>be much profit to go around, ya know?
>
>I assume you have budgetted a rather substantial amount of your initial
>capital for marketing? Make sure you do your market research before
>spending your money. It won't do you a bit of good to advertise in the
>local paper, simple knowledge of your target market shows that your
>demographic barely opens the paper, let alone actually reads it. People say
>that anyone *can* play paintball, but the simple reality is that your
>largest and most dependable demographic is 15-25 year old males. They have
>a gob of money, and usually not a whole lot of responsibilities, so that
>means oodles of spare cash. Market to them specifically, with whatever
>marketing you choose to employ. But for the love of all that is holy, DON'T
>IGNORE THE ADVERTISING!!! Many fields open, give a few bits of advertising
>and then ride their regulars for all they are worth. If you want to remain
>successful, you should annually budget for your advertising, and don't be
>afraid to spend money on it.
>
We are looking at a direct mailing and newspaper ads to cover the
general area in a non specific way for opening just to get the word
out. Local community access TV ads are very reasonable as well, this
will serve to help with image as we can do a 5 or 10 minutes spot and
have exp with infomercial style formatting and writing.

General info packages and counter displays for:
Teen centers
Community groups
Local skate, ski, sports, shops
Local music, & video stores
plus...

Targeted audiences:
Corporate outing and team building
Private Party venue promotions and incentives
Plus...

Membership cards
Frequent player rewards
All sorts of promotions and savings initiatives for group leaders
Team sponsorship

Also we actually have a Military base with a large population very
close, they will also receive a targeted more specific effort 10% off
all the time or such...

And yes it is all about location, location, and location. We found a
beautifully piece of land just a few days ago. Had absolutely
everything, level grassy areas and old growth rain forest for woods
ball (very little undergrowth, and running down to a waterway), even
parking and a pseudo parking lot. Lousy access from 2 of 4 directions
however... no good!

>> In the event of the latter much larger leases are available;
>> including but not limited to a ski lodge with 2 chair lifts, fully
>> constructed 30 site camping facilities with parking and access for 500
>> + automobiles. The government held lease expired on the last
>
>That'd be pretty expensive, wouldn't it? I'd look for land that was
>developed enough to have running water and electricity on site, maybe a
>shack or two, and leave the rest up to the tenants. It's *MUCH* cheaper
>that way. Just a thought.
>
>> Outdoor size limits are covered zoning is a possible concern however
>> I'm confidant. Cocksurity is not an exclusive, nice signature btw...
>> ;-)
>
>Yeah, I like it. It's true, too!
>
It would too mulct to assume the hill, the mention of the ski hill was
merely to make the point that in so far as outdoor we are not limited
in any way by availability.

>> Re: Markers & rentals
>>
>> Budget calls for 2 packages of 20 markers each containing the
>> following @ an estimated $208 ~ $220 CND per marker:
>>
>> Tippmann 98 Custom
>> Pure energy 12 oz pin valve tank
>> JT Rader non-thermal
>> 200 rd hopper
>> Barrel condom
>> Armbands
>>
>> Field items in package
>> Barrel squeegee x 51
>> Digital Scale x 1
>> CO2 fill station x 1
>> Speed Trap x 1
>> Case Paintballs x 2
>> JT Rader Yellow Thermal x 2
>>
>> Our planed upgrades to the above:
>> Expansion chamber kits
>> Pure energy 20 oz on/off valve tank
>> Thermal visor upgrade for JT Rader
>> or JT Elite Headshield swap out
>> Hopper upgrades
>> Barrel upgrades
>
>Slow down, there, high roller. Instead of getting stuff you can't use and
>then buying more stuff to replace it, just get the stuff you need up front!
>Remember, if you're a field, and you're buying 10-15K worth of stuff,
>they'll MAKE a package for you. DEFINITELY look around before you buy, and
>talk to the BIG companies directly. Most "packages" are put together by
>middlemen looking to score on the resell, but if you're buying big, go to
>the source. Not only will you save money, you'll also get EXACTLY what you
>need.
>
We fully intend to work the supplier or wholesaler over on both price
and contents of the packages.

>I would go with the following for rentals:
>Tippmann 98
>20 oz pin valve tank
>Thermal lens JT or Scott masks
>Standard Hopper
>Standard Barrel
>Barrel Plug/Condom
>
>For the field:
>a few squeegies(I believe cable squeegies come with every 98, so you may not
>need ANY squeegies)
>a few chronos(the red ones)
>a digital scale
>a CO2 fill station
>ARMBAND TAPE
>
>Specifically I say armband tape because if you use actual cloth armbands, it
>ain't gonna be long before they are either stolen, accidentally walked off
>with, or too soiled to use. Since you're gonna lose em anyways, buy some
>bright tape from a supply store of some sort as cheap as possible and just
>write it off instead.
>
We are planning for 2 chrono types. Handheld for the refs, and a radar
for the pro shop.
Armbands are cheap enough where we can get hundreds or even thousands
at a time. As a first time player you are more likely to perceive a
piece of survey tape tied around your arm as cheap compared to a
Velcro band. Its a cost of doing business if we loose a few or need to
replace them.

>> Each marker to be upgraded at the time of purchase or shortly there
>> after. Ive had crappy rentals, we have no intentions of being cheap
>> here.
>
>I think that's a mistake. The people who use rentals are inexperienced at
>the game. Quite simply, they wouldn't know the difference or realize any
>advantages from upgraded rental gear. Expansion chambers are a mistake,
>on/off valves are a mistake(newbies will turn them off, more hassle for you
>and them), hopper upgrades are a BIG mistake(they CHEW thru batteries
>$$$$!!!! and they are going to be used by people who won't give a shit about
>them, so they will break), barrel upgrades are a mistake(newbies can't hit
>squat no matter WHAT gun you give em, so why upgrade the barrel?). I would
>upgrade the size of the tank, but that's pretty much it.
>
>Bottom line, chief, rentals are for people who don't have their own gear.
>If they don't have their own gear, they simply WILL NOT be able to discern
>your rental gear from anything else, because they won't have played very
>often before. Dumping money into rentals is a waste of money. Make sure
>they work, yes, make sure they stay working, yes, but beyond that, any money
>spent on them for upgrades is a total waste of money.
>
Expansion chambers allow for a smoother longer, warmer operation and
minimize air/co2 use... how can this be bad?

Values save air/co2 how is this bad? We put them on the field and yell
"Ok everyone turn the silver knob to the right" I know its best to
assume the lowest common dumb factor but no valves?

Feed hoppers = more paint fired = more paint sold = higher returns per
customer. This is one of those cost of doing business areas, is the
expense of the battery higher or lower then the return on increased
paint sales? Only a real world study will tell... possible actions;
equip 10 or 20 markers and run a controlled comparison of player
consumption versus cost. If it come back negative then we eBay the
hoppers and call it R&D.

Improved barrel = better chance to hit something = more enjoyment =
higher return rate. At $40 retail for a smart parts barrel this is a
50/50 gamble we feel.

>> I will not go into backgrounds here but this is a brief overview of
>> the skill sets involved in our little triad of would be field owners.
>>
>> An R&D developer responsible for the founding of a Franchise 500
>> company with well over 200 current open locations.
>> Franchisor training program innovator and developer for above said
>> company.
>> Communications officer and technology advisor in ecommerce and
>> intranet/extranet support, and marketing think tank chair.
>
>For what it's worth, I'm a small business owner myself(not paintball), and
>own two businesses. I'd be happy to look over your business
>plan(confidentially, of course) to assist you in finding "areas to
>concentrate on".
>
Once we have something a little more concrete we very well make take
you up on this offer (With an signed NDA of course).

>> Also 2 of us have double duty in one, on site field support and
>> location roll out with grand opening promotions and events management
>> rolls; second, supply chain logistics for location build out,
>> contracting, sub-contracting, zoning, leases holds and improvements
>> including inventory(500+ items).
>>
>> I think it's covered, logistics, marketing, and supply chair, we have
>> the skills for paintball; in ecense our experience is in teaching
>> other people to run a small business.
>
>Let me put it to you this way. If you run the business of a field from the
>perspective of a player who loves the game, your venture will *FAIL* to meet
>the goal you achieve. It may operate, but it will be just as crappy as the
>next guy's field. The difference between the field I normally play at and
>the other fields in the area is simple. The guy who ran it played precisely
>ONE game of paintball in his entire life. He was a BUSINESSMAN, pure and
>simple. Customer service was paramount, professionalism the mantra. The
>player-run fields of the area, on the other hand, are lackluster, sloppy,
>and most of the time, the people behind the counter couldn't give a shit
>about what they do.
>

Between the three of use we have exactly 5 games worth of experience.
We have all left or are in the process of leaving high paying
corporate jobs for resons of professionalism and ethics. This is a
business venture first and foremost!

>If you want this to succeed, be businessmen first, players last.
>
>> Air/CO2/nitrogen is a non issue as well as a local friend and business
>> owner is in the welding and gas supply game.
>
>Always a plus. Keep him happy, he will have your business in his hands,
>essentially.
>
>> Customer Service is #1 in any business, this is a mantra for us.
>
>Some people start off that way and slide. Don't slide, and you'll be MILES
>ahead of everyone else.
>
>Also, make SURE your refs act with professionalism and courtesy, and that
>they know they have authority. DON'T hire 12 year olds just because they
>want to do it! And make sure games run on a SCHEDULE!!! Nothing pisses
>players off more than waiting around for half an hour to start a game just
>because the refs are lazy bums.

In the way of referees we are considering a team sponsorship and
dependant upon the response and quality of player character we may
extend an offer of employment to the members of the team for ref
positions. Otherwise yes... professional and no bull shit are major
criteria in hiring practices.

Aside from the marker upgrades I think we are on the excact same page
as far as the criteria for successful field go.

>>The big problem you're going to run into, however, is not equipment,
it's
going to be floating the cost of paint<<

Not if you make it BYOP. Most players hate the F****ing field owners
who rip us off for $80-100 per case of paint. I think your biggest
problem is the indoors thing. Indoor fields get messy with paint all
over and are limited in size. An open area only allows speedball type
play and we all know real paintballers play woods. A warehouse or
simulated school would be fun for simulation play. Lease a wooded
area. Allow BYOP. Have good refs that deal with wipers and cheaters.
If you were in central NJ youd make a killing because no fields have
all 3 .