On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 06:04:27 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
wrote:

>"Mofaz" <sixstringbliss@spaminator.getnet.net> wrote in message
>news:3f838f78$0$85025$4c5eba9e@news.newshosting.c om...
>> Now, the question in my head is, if I sell the 'Cocker I built could I
>> classify it as a custom 'Cocker or just one I put together? What
>classifies
>> any gun as custom anyway; who puts it together or the specific brand name
>> aftermarket parts used?
>
>To me, a gun put together with blud, sweat n tears is the only gun that
>actually *IS* custom, and as such, a gun you built yourself is, by
>definition, a custom marker.
>
>There is a distinct difference between "high end" and "custom" that few
>people truly recognize or realize. It's one thing to crank out a thousand
>copies of a high end gun using high end performance parts, etc etal, but
>simply being expensive does not ipso facto make it custom. However, for
>some reason, the terms "custom" and "expensive" are used interchangably by
>our sport's participants, without any real regard for the meaning of the
>words being used.
>
>In my opinion, a custom gun is very simply a gun that has been created as
>such at the behest of it's owner for the use of that owner(either by
>personal modification or paying someone else to do it). In other words, for
>a gun to be custom, it must be (more or less) unique. The brand name high
>end guns are no more custom than a luxury automobile rolling off the line.
>Sure, they're expensive, but they are no different from any other thing
>rolling off the line.
>
>Specifically, I think of the P&P "supercocker" line of autocockers. Very
>expensive, very pretty, very well liked and apparantly well operating guns,
>but those guns are simply cookie cutter copies of some original autococker
>that the guy made and liked. Someone has a "custom" supercocker. Only one
>person has the custom cocker that spawned that line, I'm guessing his name
>is Caesar(the owner/operator of the business).
>
>My gun is a custom gun. It's built to my specs, with parts of my choosing.
>Someone else made it, yes, but it's still a unique piece of paintball gear.
>Your gun sounds to be the same thing. Built by you, with parts of your
>choosing, to your specifications.

Before we get back on this argument. Any gun that is no longer stock
is a custom gun regardless of how it was made.
Everything and I mean everything is mass produced. Bodies, rams,
bolts, regulators etc....Pick and choose...you can rest assured that
many people have the exact same gun out there. Even Jeff's Wildside
set up. That isn't even a slam on his gun...it's just that it's no
more custom then any off the other cockers coming from the assembly
lines. Regardless of what he wants to think.

Christ..in the industry now you can buy a stock cocker and change the
pnumatics and call it a custom gun

>hat classifies
>any gun as custom anyway;

a friend of mine used to make custom guns.. he started out with a block of
aluminum and a milling machine...



Billy Goodman -
Pukin Dogs
http://www.pukindogspaintball.com

"The Gunslinger" <dddd@dddd.com> wrote in message
news:dg08ovg85lpa49t44b10h7doh92mivau4i@4ax.com...
> Before we get back on this argument. Any gun that is no longer stock
> is a custom gun regardless of how it was made.

A car rolls off the line with the works installed on it, upgraded interior,
power everything, the whole nine yards. It's nicer than any other car of
that model that you can buy, but all the stuff was installed at the factory.
Someone else could potentially purchase the exact same car as you, if they
wanted to spend as much money. Is the car a custom car? It is, after all,
no longer "stock", it has upgrades past the normal factory stuff put into
it. I then upgrade the stereo, installing a fancy schmancy sound system.
Is my car custom? Or better yet, I buy a totally stock car, then take it
for it's first oil change, at which time, the guys at the oil change place
put on a non-OEM oil filter. Custom car?

When it comes to cockers, because of the customizability of the gun itself,
it is decidedly difficult to find a gun that ISN'T custom, at least by your
definition. The first thing people do with their cockers is change the
barrel. Am I to conclude that a cocker with a new barrel is somehow custom,
simply because it isn't using the stock barrel? That's a pretty broad
definition of "custom gun".

> Everything and I mean everything is mass produced. Bodies, rams,
> bolts, regulators etc....Pick and choose...you can rest assured that
> many people have the exact same gun out there. Even Jeff's Wildside
> set up. That isn't even a slam on his gun...it's just that it's no
> more custom then any off the other cockers coming from the assembly
> lines. Regardless of what he wants to think.

The difference between my gun and a high end gun that comes off the line is
that I didn't pick it out of a catalog, saying "that's what I want". Yes,
the parts used to make my gun are as mass produced as any out there, but the
gun was built to my specs for me. It wasn't a stock configuration of fancy
parts, which is the industry standard for what passes as "custom" these
days. The difference between my gun and the "supercocker" type guns out
there is that my gun is (more or less) unique. There are literally
thousands of people out there with supercockers that are (more or less)
identical.

> Christ..in the industry now you can buy a stock cocker and change the
> pnumatics and call it a custom gun

From the tone of this paragraph, you're agreeing with my sentiment. Simply
changing a part on a gun does not necessarily make it custom. Remember,
we're not talking about what "is", we're talking about what "should be".

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 11:15:32 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
wrote:

>"The Gunslinger" <dddd@dddd.com> wrote in message
>news:dg08ovg85lpa49t44b10h7doh92mivau4i@4ax.com.. .
>> Before we get back on this argument. Any gun that is no longer stock
>> is a custom gun regardless of how it was made.
>
>A car rolls off the line with the works installed on it, upgraded interior,
>power everything, the whole nine yards. It's nicer than any other car of
>that model that you can buy, but all the stuff was installed at the factory.
>Someone else could potentially purchase the exact same car as you, if they
>wanted to spend as much money. Is the car a custom car? It is, after all,
>no longer "stock", it has upgrades past the normal factory stuff put into
>it. I then upgrade the stereo, installing a fancy schmancy sound system.
>Is my car custom? Or better yet, I buy a totally stock car, then take it
>for it's first oil change, at which time, the guys at the oil change place
>put on a non-OEM oil filter. Custom car?

What if you sent your car to a company such as Saleen? That's an
assembly line type of company. One that is considered very much
custom, no?

Perhaps you'd like to talk motorcycles and Harley? You can purchase
stock and factory custom.

>
>When it comes to cockers, because of the customizability of the gun itself,
>it is decidedly difficult to find a gun that ISN'T custom, at least by your
>definition. The first thing people do with their cockers is change the
>barrel. Am I to conclude that a cocker with a new barrel is somehow custom,
>simply because it isn't using the stock barrel? That's a pretty broad
>definition of "custom gun".

Let's make it easy for everyone. Stock cockers would be ones bought as
is from Worr, or purchased from 3rd parties new in the box from Worr.
Worr's upper line would be Factory Custom. Changing a barrel would be
a broad definition of custom. Though it would be a workable definition
of it. The gun would have been changed from it's original form...thus
custom.

You can't call your markers custom just because you payed someone to
assemble a bunch of mix and match mass produced parts to your specs,
then on the other hand call the assembly line cockers (Dye, BPS,
BBT,SC and others) non-custom. It's all the same. BPS will build their
Twister to your Specs....down to all the parts you want on it. Dye
will adjust the trigger for you if you like before they send it. BBT
will make a longer, soft trigger if you like. Even though they are
known for a short, crisp pull.

Heck..early on I had a right feed that was sent to AKA for all of the
Low Pressure add-ons. I had a reverse P-Block milled and AKA cut their
Lightning bolt to fit. Early milling on internal air passages and all.
After it was returned it was sent to BBT for body milling and
anodizing. Then when it returned BPS set up the trigger for me as I
loved their longer, soft pull.

Custom? You bet ya...Assembly line Shops doing the work? Yup. AKA
wasn't at the time but getting very close. They have now reached
assembly line status.

>The difference between my gun and a high end gun that comes off the line is
>that I didn't pick it out of a catalog, saying "that's what I want". Yes,
>the parts used to make my gun are as mass produced as any out there, but the
>gun was built to my specs for me.

I'm willing to bet that if you used the best parts out there. There
are Assembly line cockers with the same set-up at that time.

t wasn't a stock configuration of fancy
>parts, which is the industry standard for what passes as "custom" these
>days. The difference between my gun and the "supercocker" type guns out
>there is that my gun is (more or less) unique.

Though it's no more unique then someone buying an assembly line cocker
then having the timing and trigger adjusted, no?

> There are literally
>thousands of people out there with supercockers that are (more or less)
>identical.

Yup...there are. Ugly ugly ugly gun. I hated the hockey stick milling
they recieved.

>From the tone of this paragraph, you're agreeing with my sentiment. Simply
>changing a part on a gun does not necessarily make it custom. Remember,
>we're not talking about what "is", we're talking about what "should be".

Exactly, I never wanted to bash your gun or you in this post. It' s
just that currently you can not call a gun you build to your specs any
different then a gun built to a companies Specs that isn't an exact
carbon copy of a low end stock Worr games cocker.

Perhaps we should coin a new phrase that I used earlier to describe
them.

Custom - Hand built to personal custom specs
Factory Custom - Factory built to factory custom specs
Stock - Basic run of the mill entry level Worr cocker

Out of the top two....it's down to personal choice as to what is
better. Personaly I'll be buying a body and building an E-Blade soon.

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<edCdnVYbDIIgfx6iXTWJjg@comcast.com>...
> "Mofaz" <sixstringbliss@spaminator.getnet.net> wrote in message
> news:3f838f78$0$85025$4c5eba9e@news.newshosting.co m...
> > Now, the question in my head is, if I sell the 'Cocker I built could I
> > classify it as a custom 'Cocker or just one I put together? What
> classifies
> > any gun as custom anyway; who puts it together or the specific brand name
> > aftermarket parts used?
>
> To me, a gun put together with blud, sweat n tears is the only gun that
> actually *IS* custom, and as such, a gun you built yourself is, by
> definition, a custom marker.
>
> There is a distinct difference between "high end" and "custom" that few
> people truly recognize or realize. It's one thing to crank out a thousand
> copies of a high end gun using high end performance parts, etc etal, but
> simply being expensive does not ipso facto make it custom. However, for
> some reason, the terms "custom" and "expensive" are used interchangably by
> our sport's participants, without any real regard for the meaning of the
> words being used.
>
> In my opinion, a custom gun is very simply a gun that has been created as
> such at the behest of it's owner for the use of that owner(either by
> personal modification or paying someone else to do it). In other words, for
> a gun to be custom, it must be (more or less) unique. The brand name high
> end guns are no more custom than a luxury automobile rolling off the line.
> Sure, they're expensive, but they are no different from any other thing
> rolling off the line.
>
> Specifically, I think of the P&P "supercocker" line of autocockers. Very
> expensive, very pretty, very well liked and apparantly well operating guns,
> but those guns are simply cookie cutter copies of some original autococker
> that the guy made and liked. Someone has a "custom" supercocker. Only one
> person has the custom cocker that spawned that line, I'm guessing his name
> is Caesar(the owner/operator of the business).
>
> My gun is a custom gun. It's built to my specs, with parts of my choosing.
> Someone else made it, yes, but it's still a unique piece of paintball gear.
> Your gun sounds to be the same thing. Built by you, with parts of your
> choosing, to your specifications.

Mr. Mofaz;

The point in which you speak is an interesting subject. I had a fellow
come into my store wanting to sell me his "custom" marker. Of course
it was for a hefty price compared to a new one. Our disagreement was
over his version of "custom" and my version of "custom".

His version = a standard marker that had various modifications. Tape
around the trigger, thus making a shorter tripper pull. An expansion
chamber. A barrel with some home drilled porting, etc,etc.

My version = a standard marker that had been upgraded or modified with
parts that either enhance or improve the marker in some way.

The problem I had with this gentleman's marker was that the marker did
not keep a professional or even clean look to it. It looked "put
together" not "customized". The expansion chamber did not contain the
same theme in style as the marker itself, the trigger indeed was
wrapped in electrical tape. It had not had an airsmiths enhancement
from within to provide a shorter trigger pull. And last but not least
the barrel with its home drilled porting holes. Again, not the
cleanest that even a decent doit yourself person could have done.

So, as in my Harley views of "custom" if the modification creates a
better than stock or at least different without taking away from the
looks and performance then we will be happy to call yours a "custom"
otherwise it is an "assembled basket case".

anyway, just my .02 cents ;-))

james

"The Gunslinger" <dddd@dddd.com> wrote in message
news:nsa8ovkbpf8bd1gpi1f27k45jple7fo4ar@4ax.com...
> Let's make it easy for everyone. Stock cockers would be ones bought as
> is from Worr, or purchased from 3rd parties new in the box from Worr.
> Worr's upper line would be Factory Custom. Changing a barrel would be
> a broad definition of custom. Though it would be a workable definition
> of it. The gun would have been changed from it's original form...thus
> custom.

"Let's make it easy" he sez, and then adds another category. How about we
*keep* it easy. Custom or not, plain and simple. A "factory custom" gun,
as you refer to it, would still be a factory designed gun, churned out for
the masses who want to pay more money for their marker of choice. As such,
while better than "stock", it's still "stock for the gun". Bottom line: If
you can order a gun from a catalog, it ain't custom.

> You can't call your markers custom just because you payed someone to
> assemble a bunch of mix and match mass produced parts to your specs,
> then on the other hand call the assembly line cockers (Dye, BPS,
> BBT,SC and others) non-custom. It's all the same. BPS will build their

It's not all the same. Mass production requires a level of similarity, a
level that is almost definitionally "stock", at least as far as production
goes. A guy's job description of "Screw pneumatics A into Body B" is mass
production, even if the body is stock or milled, and the pneumatics upgraded
or not.

If I happened to purchase a marker that was exactly like one they had in a
catalog of "guns for sale", I would not call my gun a custom gun. It would
be a "brand name X high end gun".

> Custom? You bet ya...Assembly line Shops doing the work? Yup. AKA
> wasn't at the time but getting very close. They have now reached
> assembly line status.

Just because an assembly line shop is known for their assembly line
productions doesn't mean they can't do custom work, as is the case with your
example. Your example was quite obviously custom production. I believe
that the problem here is that you are not distinguishing between the marker
and the manufacturer, whereas I am looking exclusively at the marker to
determine whether or not the thing is custom.

> Exactly, I never wanted to bash your gun or you in this post. It' s
> just that currently you can not call a gun you build to your specs any
> different then a gun built to a companies Specs that isn't an exact
> carbon copy of a low end stock Worr games cocker.

Not true. A gun that is built to specific factory specs is stock, bottom
line. Stock can vary by gun, of course, stock doesn't necessarily have to
mean bone stock. Stock for a "ferrari" is a hell of a lot different from
stock for a "tempo".

> Perhaps we should coin a new phrase that I used earlier to describe
> them.
>
> Custom - Hand built to personal custom specs
> Factory Custom - Factory built to factory custom specs
> Stock - Basic run of the mill entry level Worr cocker

To me, the last two are the exact same, just on different levels. Stock and
factory custom FURNITURE could be the same couch covered in either fabric or
leather. It's still the same couch that you and 10000 other people are
buying. Custom furniture is built from scratch to your specs. Same thing
with paintball guns.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

>"Let's make it easy" he sez, and then adds another category. How about we
>*keep* it easy. Custom or not, plain and simple. A "factory custom" gun,
>as you refer to it, would still be a factory designed gun, churned out for
>the masses who want to pay more money for their marker of choice. As such,
>while better than "stock", it's still "stock for the gun". Bottom line: If
>you can order a gun from a catalog, it ain't custom.

Wrong Jeff....Let's take DYE for example. They had an idea for a
custom autococker. Correct? At first they made only one. Was that one
considered custom?

>It's not all the same. Mass production requires a level of similarity, a
>level that is almost definitionally "stock", at least as far as production
>goes. A guy's job description of "Screw pneumatics A into Body B" is mass
>production, even if the body is stock or milled, and the pneumatics upgraded
>or not.

So the first prototype gun that was made isn't custom? These are in
fact carbon copies of them, no?

>If I happened to purchase a marker that was exactly like one they had in a
>catalog of "guns for sale", I would not call my gun a custom gun. It would
>be a "brand name X high end gun".

Though it would be custom when compared to stock, yes?

>I am looking exclusively at the marker to
>determine whether or not the thing is custom.

Your not though. Budd Orr and Worr Games makes the autococker. These
assembly line shops grabbed his basic gun and customized it. Thus it
is a custom gun no matter how many are made in that same mold.

>Not true. A gun that is built to specific factory specs is stock, bottom
>line. Stock can vary by gun, of course, stock doesn't necessarily have to
>mean bone stock. Stock for a "ferrari" is a hell of a lot different from
>stock for a "tempo".

Exactly..but when you send a Ford Mustang to Saleen to get the same
upgrade package everyone else gets..it's custom. Why? Saleen is not
customizing an automobile they built.

Stock does mean bone stock. That's the only way to rationalize any of
this. A stock automag is just as stock as a stock Angel is. It doesn't
change anything based upon model and performance. Stock is set by the
manufactorer.

>To me, the last two are the exact same, just on different levels. Stock and
>factory custom FURNITURE could be the same couch covered in either fabric or
>leather. It's still the same couch that you and 10000 other people are
>buying. Custom furniture is built from scratch to your specs. Same thing
>with paintball guns.

Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.....I give you an easy way out of an argument. One
that works for everyone and you ignore it. You can't call a DYE
(insert any) cocker as a stock cocker. They didn't build the damn gun
in the process. They grabbed a stock body from Worr games
ultimately,and customized it to their specs. Thus customizing it.

I know what your saying. I understand it..but it's not an accurate
label that your using.

kinda like an adreanalin impulse is expensive, and my impulse is "custom"


"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:edCdnVYbDIIgfx6iXTWJjg@comcast.com...
> "Mofaz" <sixstringbliss@spaminator.getnet.net> wrote in message
> news:3f838f78$0$85025$4c5eba9e@news.newshosting.co m...
> > Now, the question in my head is, if I sell the 'Cocker I built could I
> > classify it as a custom 'Cocker or just one I put together? What
> classifies
> > any gun as custom anyway; who puts it together or the specific brand
name
> > aftermarket parts used?
>
> To me, a gun put together with blud, sweat n tears is the only gun that
> actually *IS* custom, and as such, a gun you built yourself is, by
> definition, a custom marker.
>
> There is a distinct difference between "high end" and "custom" that few
> people truly recognize or realize. It's one thing to crank out a thousand
> copies of a high end gun using high end performance parts, etc etal, but
> simply being expensive does not ipso facto make it custom. However, for
> some reason, the terms "custom" and "expensive" are used interchangably by
> our sport's participants, without any real regard for the meaning of the
> words being used.
>
> In my opinion, a custom gun is very simply a gun that has been created as
> such at the behest of it's owner for the use of that owner(either by
> personal modification or paying someone else to do it). In other words,
for
> a gun to be custom, it must be (more or less) unique. The brand name high
> end guns are no more custom than a luxury automobile rolling off the line.
> Sure, they're expensive, but they are no different from any other thing
> rolling off the line.
>
> Specifically, I think of the P&P "supercocker" line of autocockers. Very
> expensive, very pretty, very well liked and apparantly well operating
guns,
> but those guns are simply cookie cutter copies of some original autococker
> that the guy made and liked. Someone has a "custom" supercocker. Only
one
> person has the custom cocker that spawned that line, I'm guessing his name
> is Caesar(the owner/operator of the business).
>
> My gun is a custom gun. It's built to my specs, with parts of my
choosing.
> Someone else made it, yes, but it's still a unique piece of paintball
gear.
> Your gun sounds to be the same thing. Built by you, with parts of your
> choosing, to your specifications.
>
> --
> Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
> It's not a god complex when you're always right
>
>
>
>


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