Calling it a wargame does not necessarily make it so. Calling it a war
scenario does not necessarily make it so. There have been MANY scenario
games through the years with names like "Viet-Cong vs. the NVA", or "Yanks
vs Confederates. Both alude to historical military events. The scenario
games will even lay out a whole bunch of objectives, rules, missions, usable
"weapons", etc and you know what? When it's all said and the VAST majority
of the players just go out there and shoot the shit out of anything that
moves. I'd hardly call it a wargame. If it were there'd be a bunch dead
MFers on the field that died of shear stupidity. It takes more than
camoeflage and a paintgun to make it a wargame and the way this game is
played by the vast majority of people hardly qualifies it as such.


"Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
commercial
> and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios. I
> might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling the
"I
> know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in that
> time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have always
been
> a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has been,
> and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I literaly
> reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I could
> find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what does
> that tell us.....
>
> Cheers
>
> Dan
>
> BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the reasons for
> not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want' anything
to
> do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get a
> retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on the job
> enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
>
>
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective is
> > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two teams
point
> > [snip for brevity]
> > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or military
> > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the downed
> > pilot
> > [snip for brevity]
> > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their firing
> > [snip for brevity]
> > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> >
> > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our sport
> > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately simulate
> > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
employed,
> > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating real
> combat
> > conditions.
> >
> > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than the
> > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> participants
> > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim victory**.
> Your
> > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over a
> bishop
> > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can find
is
> > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across, except
maybe
> > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course, then it
> is
> > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> >
> > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more you
apply
> > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic rules,
> > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people not
> leaving
> > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to 45
round
> > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied, and so
> on.
> > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a wargame
> than
> > a pasttime.
> >
> > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of the
sport
> > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really seen
much
> > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's progression,
> > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see that
> very
> > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game was
> never
> > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
conclusion,
> > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> >
> > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about some
> guys
> > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape must
win
> a
> > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> >
> > --
> > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > http://www.goslin.info
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

d-uh, painbtball IS a wargame.
Here's Mike, here's a quarter, buy yourself a clue.

Cheers

Dan

"Michael Hughes" <dapaintschmuck@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:belap3$86l$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> that tells you that one field pushes paintball as a wargame.
>
> whats your point.
>
> "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> commercial
> > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios. I
> > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling
the
> "I
> > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
that
> > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have always
> been
> > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
been,
> > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I literaly
> > reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I could
> > find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what does
> > that tell us.....
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the reasons
for
> > not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want' anything
> to
> > do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get a
> > retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on the
job
> > enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective is
> > > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two teams
> point
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or
military
> > > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the
downed
> > > pilot
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their firing
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> > >
> > > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our sport
> > > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately
simulate
> > > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
> employed,
> > > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating real
> > combat
> > > conditions.
> > >
> > > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than the
> > > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> > participants
> > > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim victory**.
> > Your
> > > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over a
> > bishop
> > > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can find
> is
> > > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across, except
> maybe
> > > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course, then
it
> > is
> > > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> > >
> > > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more you
> apply
> > > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic rules,
> > > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people not
> > leaving
> > > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to 45
> round
> > > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied, and
so
> > on.
> > > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a wargame
> > than
> > > a pasttime.
> > >
> > > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of the
> sport
> > > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really seen
> much
> > > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's progression,
> > > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see that
> > very
> > > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game was
> > never
> > > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
> conclusion,
> > > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> > >
> > > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about
some
> > guys
> > > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape must
> win
> > a
> > > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > > http://www.goslin.info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

And as I scroll through this newsgroup, what do I find, but an add for a
U.K. site, and I'll quote:


* Free access to best paintball centres in the UK
* The entrance fee to a full day of paintball action
* Free equipment hire (goggles, headguard, combat suit, ninja hood &
commando battlepack)
* Free latest semi-automatic machine gun (awesome fire-power! Capable
of firing up to 7 rounds a second. Free gas included)

Each centre is located within a massive forest, and has up to 10
unique game zones, each with a different theme. For more information
on the locations, games and tactics (or indeed, anything to do with
the paintball centres), visit: http://www.deltaforcedirect.co.uk

Now Mike, see the line about COMBAT SUIT, NINJA HOOD & COMMANDO BATTLEPACK,
I wonder if those refer to a warlike game .... YUP I think they do, leaves
kind of a distinctive image in my head, OH, don't forget, SEMI AUTOMATIC
MACHINE GUN. Gee, not marker, paint delivery system, but MACHINE GUN,,
GUN GUN GUN GUN... did I stress the MACHINE GUN enough.
Thats the first two advert that I have come across , other that the NPPL
since I waded in here.

Cheers,

Dan




"Michael Hughes" <dapaintschmuck@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:belap3$86l$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> that tells you that one field pushes paintball as a wargame.
>
> whats your point.
>
> "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> commercial
> > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios. I
> > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling
the
> "I
> > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
that
> > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have always
> been
> > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
been,
> > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I literaly
> > reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I could
> > find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what does
> > that tell us.....
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the reasons
for
> > not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want' anything
> to
> > do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get a
> > retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on the
job
> > enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective is
> > > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two teams
> point
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or
military
> > > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the
downed
> > > pilot
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their firing
> > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> > >
> > > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our sport
> > > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately
simulate
> > > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
> employed,
> > > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating real
> > combat
> > > conditions.
> > >
> > > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than the
> > > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> > participants
> > > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim victory**.
> > Your
> > > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over a
> > bishop
> > > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can find
> is
> > > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across, except
> maybe
> > > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course, then
it
> > is
> > > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> > >
> > > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more you
> apply
> > > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic rules,
> > > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people not
> > leaving
> > > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to 45
> round
> > > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied, and
so
> > on.
> > > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a wargame
> > than
> > > a pasttime.
> > >
> > > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of the
> sport
> > > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really seen
> much
> > > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's progression,
> > > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see that
> > very
> > > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game was
> > never
> > > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
> conclusion,
> > > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> > >
> > > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about
some
> > guys
> > > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape must
> win
> > a
> > > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > > http://www.goslin.info
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

"Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
commercial
> and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios. I
> might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling the
"I
> know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in that
> time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have always
been
> a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has been,
> and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I literaly

We play a standard set of games to start the day at our field, 2 games each
of Capture the Flag, Elimination, Center Flag and Attack & Defend. What
exactly is warlike about those games? CTF and CF are obviously not warlike
in and of themselves. Elimination and A&D could possibly be deemed
"warlike", but only if warlike consequences are implemented. The whole key
to the determination of whether or not paintball is a wargame lies in the
representation of war within the rules of the game.

I think one of the key elements is that there is no command structure
involved. At *BEST*, in a standard recreational game, one person *MIGHT*
stand up and give some broad guidelines(you guys go there, you guys go here,
we'll go over there, and try to get their flag, ok?) but beyond that,
everyone is typically on their own. If someone with more experience says to
someone with less experience that they should do a certain thing, the other
person is just as likely to tell the asker to **** off as they are to
actually do what they are told. In a wargame, there are objectives, people
who are directly moving on the objectives, people who are supporting those
people, and supporting the supporters, and so on. There are noted
consequences for being hit, there are structures for such things.

Paintball is a game where some people get together and have a good time
shooting each other with balls of paint, nothing more. To ascribe more to
it is to take the game to a level that many people do not intend for the
sport.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD
It's not a god complex when you're always right
http://www.goslin.info

Hey, it's what paintball is being marketed as ( in the UK) IU admit, the
machine gun reference was abit over the top, but it so aptly demostrated my
point.

One mans' retard is another mans idiot savant! <G>

Cheers
Dan




"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Av-dnXLImelN0pKiXTWJjg@comcast.com...
> I would attribute this to a person who is utterly and completely
unfamiliar
> with paintball. Did you READ the article? It read like a retarded
version
> of what paintball is.
>
> --
> Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> It's not a god complex when you're always right
> http://www.goslin.info
>
>
> "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> news:vgu82fk065pa69@corp.supernews.com...
> > And as I scroll through this newsgroup, what do I find, but an add for a
> > U.K. site, and I'll quote:
> >
> >
> > * Free access to best paintball centres in the UK
> > * The entrance fee to a full day of paintball action
> > * Free equipment hire (goggles, headguard, combat suit, ninja hood &
> > commando battlepack)
> > * Free latest semi-automatic machine gun (awesome fire-power! Capable
> > of firing up to 7 rounds a second. Free gas included)
> >
> > Each centre is located within a massive forest, and has up to 10
> > unique game zones, each with a different theme. For more information
> > on the locations, games and tactics (or indeed, anything to do with
> > the paintball centres), visit: http://www.deltaforcedirect.co.uk
> >
> > Now Mike, see the line about COMBAT SUIT, NINJA HOOD & COMMANDO
> BATTLEPACK,
> > I wonder if those refer to a warlike game .... YUP I think they do,
> leaves
> > kind of a distinctive image in my head, OH, don't forget, SEMI
> AUTOMATIC
> > MACHINE GUN. Gee, not marker, paint delivery system, but MACHINE
GUN,,
> > GUN GUN GUN GUN... did I stress the MACHINE GUN enough.
> > Thats the first two advert that I have come across , other that the NPPL
> > since I waded in here.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Michael Hughes" <dapaintschmuck@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:belap3$86l$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > > that tells you that one field pushes paintball as a wargame.
> > >
> > > whats your point.
> > >
> > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> > > commercial
> > > > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war
scenarios.
> I
> > > > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not
pulling
> > the
> > > "I
> > > > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
> > that
> > > > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have
> always
> > > been
> > > > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
> > been,
> > > > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I
> literaly
> > > > reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I
> could
> > > > find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what
> does
> > > > that tell us.....
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > > BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the
reasons
> > for
> > > > not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want'
> anything
> > > to
> > > > do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get
a
> > > > retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on
the
> > job
> > > > enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > > > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective
is
> > > > > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two
teams
> > > point
> > > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or
> > military
> > > > > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > > > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the
> > downed
> > > > > pilot
> > > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their
firing
> > > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> > > > >
> > > > > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our
> sport
> > > > > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately
> > simulate
> > > > > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
> > > employed,
> > > > > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating
real
> > > > combat
> > > > > conditions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than
the
> > > > > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> > > > participants
> > > > > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim
> victory**.
> > > > Your
> > > > > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over
a
> > > > bishop
> > > > > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can
> find
> > > is
> > > > > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across,
except
> > > maybe
> > > > > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course,
> then
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more
you
> > > apply
> > > > > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic
> rules,
> > > > > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people
not
> > > > leaving
> > > > > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to
45
> > > round
> > > > > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied,
> and
> > so
> > > > on.
> > > > > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a
> wargame
> > > > than
> > > > > a pasttime.
> > > > >
> > > > > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of
the
> > > sport
> > > > > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really
seen
> > > much
> > > > > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's
> progression,
> > > > > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see
> that
> > > > very
> > > > > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > > > > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game
> was
> > > > never
> > > > > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
> > > conclusion,
> > > > > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> > > > >
> > > > > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about
> > some
> > > > guys
> > > > > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape
> must
> > > win
> > > > a
> > > > > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > > > > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > > > > http://www.goslin.info
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Oh come the **** on Jeff, breathin through the mouth again... <G> ATTACK
AND DEFEND, what ISN"T war like about that!

Jeff, I agree with most of your comments below, including the chain of
command bit, ( even though we sometimes declare a chain of command, ) I
like to keep it light when I play, that way everyone, including the guys on
the other team come off the field smiling.
Ok, how this, SOME games or fields play in enviroments, or in such a way to
represent combat situations on a simulated or light level.

Cheers
Dan




"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:7lWdnbNVy9vu0pKiU-KYgg@comcast.com...
> "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> commercial
> > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios. I
> > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling
the
> "I
> > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
that
> > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have always
> been
> > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
been,
> > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I literaly
>
> We play a standard set of games to start the day at our field, 2 games
each
> of Capture the Flag, Elimination, Center Flag and Attack & Defend. What
> exactly is warlike about those games? CTF and CF are obviously not
warlike
> in and of themselves. Elimination and A&D could possibly be deemed
> "warlike", but only if warlike consequences are implemented. The whole
key
> to the determination of whether or not paintball is a wargame lies in the
> representation of war within the rules of the game.
>
> I think one of the key elements is that there is no command structure
> involved. At *BEST*, in a standard recreational game, one person *MIGHT*
> stand up and give some broad guidelines(you guys go there, you guys go
here,
> we'll go over there, and try to get their flag, ok?) but beyond that,
> everyone is typically on their own. If someone with more experience says
to
> someone with less experience that they should do a certain thing, the
other
> person is just as likely to tell the asker to **** off as they are to
> actually do what they are told. In a wargame, there are objectives,
people
> who are directly moving on the objectives, people who are supporting those
> people, and supporting the supporters, and so on. There are noted
> consequences for being hit, there are structures for such things.
>
> Paintball is a game where some people get together and have a good time
> shooting each other with balls of paint, nothing more. To ascribe more to
> it is to take the game to a level that many people do not intend for the
> sport.
>
> --
> Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> It's not a god complex when you're always right
> http://www.goslin.info
>
>
>
>

nice evidence there asshat


"Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:vgu6umb2pj332@corp.supernews.com...
> d-uh, painbtball IS a wargame.
> Here's Mike, here's a quarter, buy yourself a clue.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dan
>
> "Michael Hughes" <dapaintschmuck@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:belap3$86l$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > that tells you that one field pushes paintball as a wargame.
> >
> > whats your point.
> >
> > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> > commercial
> > > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios.
I
> > > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling
> the
> > "I
> > > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
> that
> > > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have
always
> > been
> > > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
> been,
> > > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I
literaly
> > > reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I
could
> > > find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what
does
> > > that tell us.....
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the reasons
> for
> > > not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want'
anything
> > to
> > > do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get a
> > > retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on the
> job
> > > enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective is
> > > > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two teams
> > point
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or
> military
> > > > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the
> downed
> > > > pilot
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their firing
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> > > >
> > > > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our
sport
> > > > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately
> simulate
> > > > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
> > employed,
> > > > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating real
> > > combat
> > > > conditions.
> > > >
> > > > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than the
> > > > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> > > participants
> > > > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim
victory**.
> > > Your
> > > > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over a
> > > bishop
> > > > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can
find
> > is
> > > > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across, except
> > maybe
> > > > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course,
then
> it
> > > is
> > > > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> > > >
> > > > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more you
> > apply
> > > > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic
rules,
> > > > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people not
> > > leaving
> > > > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to 45
> > round
> > > > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied,
and
> so
> > > on.
> > > > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a
wargame
> > > than
> > > > a pasttime.
> > > >
> > > > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of the
> > sport
> > > > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really seen
> > much
> > > > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's
progression,
> > > > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see
that
> > > very
> > > > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > > > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game
was
> > > never
> > > > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
> > conclusion,
> > > > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> > > >
> > > > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about
> some
> > > guys
> > > > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape
must
> > win
> > > a
> > > > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > > > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > > > http://www.goslin.info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

wow, way to cite alot of sources, im forced to concede to one persons vision
of paintball

wrong

"Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:vgu82fk065pa69@corp.supernews.com...
> And as I scroll through this newsgroup, what do I find, but an add for a
> U.K. site, and I'll quote:
>
>
> * Free access to best paintball centres in the UK
> * The entrance fee to a full day of paintball action
> * Free equipment hire (goggles, headguard, combat suit, ninja hood &
> commando battlepack)
> * Free latest semi-automatic machine gun (awesome fire-power! Capable
> of firing up to 7 rounds a second. Free gas included)
>
> Each centre is located within a massive forest, and has up to 10
> unique game zones, each with a different theme. For more information
> on the locations, games and tactics (or indeed, anything to do with
> the paintball centres), visit: http://www.deltaforcedirect.co.uk
>
> Now Mike, see the line about COMBAT SUIT, NINJA HOOD & COMMANDO
BATTLEPACK,
> I wonder if those refer to a warlike game .... YUP I think they do,
leaves
> kind of a distinctive image in my head, OH, don't forget, SEMI
AUTOMATIC
> MACHINE GUN. Gee, not marker, paint delivery system, but MACHINE GUN,,
> GUN GUN GUN GUN... did I stress the MACHINE GUN enough.
> Thats the first two advert that I have come across , other that the NPPL
> since I waded in here.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dan
>
>
>
>
> "Michael Hughes" <dapaintschmuck@rcn.com> wrote in message
> news:belap3$86l$1@bob.news.rcn.net...
> > that tells you that one field pushes paintball as a wargame.
> >
> > whats your point.
> >
> > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > news:vgs5604s3e7j2e@corp.supernews.com...
> > > Well Jeff, EVERY incantation of the game that I have played, both
> > commercial
> > > and renagade has had at least one, if not all simulated war scenarios.
I
> > > might add my first games was approximately 16 years ago ( not pulling
> the
> > "I
> > > know more cuz I played longer", just a historical reference) and in
> that
> > > time, bothe indoor and outdoor war and cqb battles are and have
always
> > been
> > > a main stay . Therefore one can, and must conclude that paintbal has
> been,
> > > and still is a wargame. The marketing of it tells the story. I
literaly
> > > reached down under my desk and pulled the first paintball flyer I
could
> > > find, what's it called " COMBAT VALLEY" combatvalley.com hmm, what
does
> > > that tell us.....
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > BTW I just read your response to Trenchy where you stated the reasons
> for
> > > not likening it to war, as some have been there and don't want'
anything
> > to
> > > do with it... I can't disagree with your motives . I tried to get a
> > > retired cop out to play and he said, " I've had to draw my gun on the
> job
> > > enough, I have no desire to do it now." or words to that effect.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:LQ6dnbtaXaoRuJCiXTWJhw@comcast.com...
> > > > "Daniel Martin" <dwmartin@idirect.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:vgpifmmfsks148@corp.supernews.com...
> > > > > Paintball. a game where two teams are designated, an objective is
> > > > > determined ;Capture the flag, hold the fort, etc. The two teams
> > point
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > Large games are are often patterend after historic battels or
> military
> > > > > skirmishes, and include mock arial support, tanks spies.
> > > > > Smaller games can have a military flavout. such as capture the
> downed
> > > > pilot
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > Some player een renact military history, by limiting their firing
> > > > [snip for brevity]
> > > > > So, who is this not warlike???????
> > > >
> > > > In my entire argument, I did not say that you could not MAKE our
sport
> > > > "warlike". To be sure, there are ways to much more accurately
> simulate
> > > > combat conditions when playing paintball. Such rules are RARELY
> > employed,
> > > > and never to a level that will even come CLOSE to approximating real
> > > combat
> > > > conditions.
> > > >
> > > > Take chess. You could EASILY make chess MUCH more like war than the
> > > > strategy game we all play. Make your moves on a grid where the
> > > participants
> > > > actually must combat the opposition in the square to claim
victory**.
> > > Your
> > > > decision of which person is to represent a pawn over a knight over a
> > > bishop
> > > > over a queen is important. Biggest, baddest motherfucker you can
find
> > is
> > > > your "queen". Beats the shit out of anyone he comes across, except
> > maybe
> > > > the opposing queen. Why can't you do that to chess? Of course,
then
> it
> > > is
> > > > no longer chess. It's really turned chess into a wargame.
> > > >
> > > > I would argue that the same thing happens to paintball the more you
> > apply
> > > > rules to approximate it closer and closer to actual war. Medic
rules,
> > > > requiring hit persons to be dragged by two live players, people not
> > > leaving
> > > > the field but rather dropping where they stand, limiting ammo to 45
> > round
> > > > hoppers only, to be completely removed and replaced once emptied,
and
> so
> > > on.
> > > > All of these things *CAN* be done to make our game more like a
wargame
> > > than
> > > > a pasttime.
> > > >
> > > > But in the sport's current incarnation, and every incarnation of the
> > sport
> > > > since it's inception, none of these "reality rules" have really seen
> > much
> > > > play time. The sport has simply not followed a wargame's
progression,
> > > > historically. Look at the history of the sport, and you will see
that
> > > very
> > > > few of the rules enforced, even early on, had anything to do with
> > > > approximating warfare. Therefore, one must conclude that the game
was
> > > never
> > > > intended to be an approximation of war, and once you make this
> > conclusion,
> > > > you must further deduce that paintball is therefore NOT A WARGAME.
> > > >
> > > > ** (In a semi-related note, wasn't there a cheezy 80's flick about
> some
> > > guys
> > > > who get thrown into this gulag type place and in order to escape
must
> > win
> > > a
> > > > game of chess as the king, and strategist, of a live chess board?)
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Jeff Goslin - MCSD
> > > > It's not a god complex when you're always right
> > > > http://www.goslin.info
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>